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I think that if I were going to teach programming to high school kids I'd show them the console in Chrome / Safari, because it's something they all have easy ac

I think that if I were going to teach programming to high school kids I'd show them the console in Chrome / Safari, because it's something they all have easy access to (I assume we're talking about a first world country, right). VB seems to me to be a poor choice because it doesn't intersect with the kids' lives. They likely won't go home and build VB apps (on their Macs...) The console is like lifting the curtain and revealing the motor underneath something we all use every day.

irahul 13y ago
To each his own. I find web development(dynamic or just html/css) doesn't have the instant gratification something like VB has(it doesn't have to be VB). The main purpose of teaching programming to high-schoolers is to con them into learning it themselves. VB, despite its warts, was one of the most popular programming languages of its time. Excel and VB owe its popularity to the simple fact that they aren't hostile(or at least not as hostile as others) to newcomers.
- xauronx 13y ago
  As someone who learned programming in VB, I agree with you. As a junior high kid I was able to make things from business calculators to arcade style games. Was my code great? NO. Was it hip and trendy? Back then... maybe, but no. Am I now a successful programmer "who knows better" with a degree/full time job/start up? Yes. I'm not sure VB was a "make or break" factor in my education, but it certainly didn't help. Also, I'm trying to teach my girlfriend development and web development, it turns out, IS NOT a good place to start.
  - Tloewald 13y ago
    I learned to program in school using BASIC on an Apple II, and it was great, but that doesn't mean I think this is the way to teach programming today. As recently as, say, 2000 desktop applications written in VB were kind of cool and relevant. Today: not so much. In 2000 the original writer's daughter would probably have bugged her for a Windows laptop and not a Macbook Pro. > I'm trying to teach my girlfriend development and web development, it turns out, IS NOT a good place to start. I totally agree, which is why I would teach Javascript, not web development.
    - xauronx 13y ago
      And then what happens when they go "Ok, so... can I actually make anything with this? How would I use this in the real world?" Which is exactly what happened to me a week ago. Then you're on the hook for "Well, first you'll have to learn HTML, then you'll have to learn how to access the HTML from javascript... then you'll have to learn CSS to actually make it not look embarassing." I SUPPOSE I could make my novice girlfriend write a backend server in node with her new found looping and if/else if skills. I think once she gets the basics down I'm going to have to switch her over to objective-c, which is going to be a bitch but at least she can do something and see results. I love javascript, but it's not a fun and immediately rewarding experience like you get with a design->compile->run process.
- Tloewald 13y ago
  I agree that VB's build-run-debug cycle is highly gratifying, but so is JavaScript's if properly taught, and it has the advantage of -- as I said -- being the underpinning of something they actually use. If you want to show the joy of a VB-like build-run-debug cycle, use Unity and C# (or Unityscript) and it's (a) free, (b) runs on Macs, and (again) (c) builds stuff they might actually care about.
acjohnson55 13y ago
I totally agree. But most high school computer teachers simply aren't that sophisticated. At the very least, the poor guy would need something like Dev Bootcamp or an intensive General Assembly course to even scratch the surface of modern software development. Who's paying for that? If this guy actually had modern software development skills, he's have the option of getting twice the pay of his current job of being a teacher/programmer/recruiter/promoter/psychiatrist/policeman/administrator/coach (possibly)/network admin (possibly)/ ... ad infinitum, and with a less critical audience of parents, students, and administrators. Our disjointed education system has done a pretty crappy job of anticipating the software revolution and gearing up for it. I mean think about it, even in higher ed, software development/engineering as a discipline separate from computer science and computer engineering is not even 10 years old in many places. At most ed schools, software education is just a component of overall tech ed, if it's available at all, and specializing in tech ed is a good way to make yourself expendable by not being certified in a "core" subject. And with most K-12 curriculum priorities being set by individual local districts and schools, it seems hardly probable that administrators, overburdened as they are trying to increase test scores in core subjects, are going be able to sense and react to long-term economic trends by beefing up their software instructional staffs.

irahul 13y ago

To each his own. I find web development(dynamic or just html/css) doesn't have the instant gratification something like VB has(it doesn't have to be VB). The main purpose of teaching programming to high-schoolers is to con them into learning it themselves. VB, despite its warts, was one of the most popular programming languages of its time. Excel and VB owe its popularity to the simple fact that they aren't hostile(or at least not as hostile as others) to newcomers.

xauronx 13y ago
As someone who learned programming in VB, I agree with you. As a junior high kid I was able to make things from business calculators to arcade style games. Was my code great? NO. Was it hip and trendy? Back then... maybe, but no. Am I now a successful programmer "who knows better" with a degree/full time job/start up? Yes. I'm not sure VB was a "make or break" factor in my education, but it certainly didn't help. Also, I'm trying to teach my girlfriend development and web development, it turns out, IS NOT a good place to start.
- Tloewald 13y ago
  I learned to program in school using BASIC on an Apple II, and it was great, but that doesn't mean I think this is the way to teach programming today. As recently as, say, 2000 desktop applications written in VB were kind of cool and relevant. Today: not so much. In 2000 the original writer's daughter would probably have bugged her for a Windows laptop and not a Macbook Pro. > I'm trying to teach my girlfriend development and web development, it turns out, IS NOT a good place to start. I totally agree, which is why I would teach Javascript, not web development.
  - xauronx 13y ago
    And then what happens when they go "Ok, so... can I actually make anything with this? How would I use this in the real world?" Which is exactly what happened to me a week ago. Then you're on the hook for "Well, first you'll have to learn HTML, then you'll have to learn how to access the HTML from javascript... then you'll have to learn CSS to actually make it not look embarassing." I SUPPOSE I could make my novice girlfriend write a backend server in node with her new found looping and if/else if skills. I think once she gets the basics down I'm going to have to switch her over to objective-c, which is going to be a bitch but at least she can do something and see results. I love javascript, but it's not a fun and immediately rewarding experience like you get with a design->compile->run process.
Tloewald 13y ago
I agree that VB's build-run-debug cycle is highly gratifying, but so is JavaScript's if properly taught, and it has the advantage of -- as I said -- being the underpinning of something they actually use. If you want to show the joy of a VB-like build-run-debug cycle, use Unity and C# (or Unityscript) and it's (a) free, (b) runs on Macs, and (again) (c) builds stuff they might actually care about.

acjohnson55 13y ago

I totally agree. But most high school computer teachers simply aren't that sophisticated. At the very least, the poor guy would need something like Dev Bootcamp or an intensive General Assembly course to even scratch the surface of modern software development. Who's paying for that? If this guy actually had modern software development skills, he's have the option of getting twice the pay of his current job of being a teacher/programmer/recruiter/promoter/psychiatrist/policeman/administrator/coach (possibly)/network admin (possibly)/ ... ad infinitum, and with a less critical audience of parents, students, and administrators. Our disjointed education system has done a pretty crappy job of anticipating the software revolution and gearing up for it. I mean think about it, even in higher ed, software development/engineering as a discipline separate from computer science and computer engineering is not even 10 years old in many places. At most ed schools, software education is just a component of overall tech ed, if it's available at all, and specializing in tech ed is a good way to make yourself expendable by not being certified in a "core" subject. And with most K-12 curriculum priorities being set by individual local districts and schools, it seems hardly probable that administrators, overburdened as they are trying to increase test scores in core subjects, are going be able to sense and react to long-term economic trends by beefing up their software instructional staffs.