6 ms·

> I'm sure they're teaching VB simply because that's what they have experience with, probably making them the most experienced programmer on staff at the school

by irahul 13y ago

> I'm sure they're teaching VB simply because that's what they have experience with, probably making them the most experienced programmer on staff at the school. VB is a fine language to get children interested in programming. Personally, I know many people who weren't able to grasp programming via C but were pretty excited about VB's gui designer and easy database connectivity. Most of the introduction to VB didn't teach them much programming, but at least it got them interested. > High school bullies are typically quite good at restricting their bullying to times when they're unlikely to be spotted by an authority figure. The author is being unfair when she is holding the teacher solely accountable for bullying. > It takes a lot of effort to maintain an authentic connection. Parents have trouble connecting authentically with their children--imagine doing it with scores of students per semester. And when it comes to bullying, most teenagers downplay to avoid being though of as a snitch. Some are self-conscious to be bailed out even when they haven't "snitched". There is also the fact that being teacher's pet generally invites more bullying. If they can't harass you, they will begin isolating you. And of course, the general mentality isn't in favor of snitches even when the snitches are hapless victims. Children don't have a strong sense of right and wrong and peer pressure muddies it more. > For many of the author's suggestions, the teacher may be doing these things (recruiting, cross-promoting, etc.), to the extent that they have time. But these are outside the job of teaching. These are things the author could be doing at the school too, but presumably she's too busy. I'm sure the teacher can relate. I haven't taught at professional level, but I do like teaching. And I like to teach people who are interested in learning. If I were a teacher, I won't really do much recruiting and promotion. If the job requires me to do it, I probably won't take it.

Tloewald 13y ago
I think that if I were going to teach programming to high school kids I'd show them the console in Chrome / Safari, because it's something they all have easy access to (I assume we're talking about a first world country, right). VB seems to me to be a poor choice because it doesn't intersect with the kids' lives. They likely won't go home and build VB apps (on their Macs...) The console is like lifting the curtain and revealing the motor underneath something we all use every day.
- irahul 13y ago
  To each his own. I find web development(dynamic or just html/css) doesn't have the instant gratification something like VB has(it doesn't have to be VB). The main purpose of teaching programming to high-schoolers is to con them into learning it themselves. VB, despite its warts, was one of the most popular programming languages of its time. Excel and VB owe its popularity to the simple fact that they aren't hostile(or at least not as hostile as others) to newcomers.
  - xauronx 13y ago
    As someone who learned programming in VB, I agree with you. As a junior high kid I was able to make things from business calculators to arcade style games. Was my code great? NO. Was it hip and trendy? Back then... maybe, but no. Am I now a successful programmer "who knows better" with a degree/full time job/start up? Yes. I'm not sure VB was a "make or break" factor in my education, but it certainly didn't help. Also, I'm trying to teach my girlfriend development and web development, it turns out, IS NOT a good place to start.
    - Tloewald 13y ago
      I learned to program in school using BASIC on an Apple II, and it was great, but that doesn't mean I think this is the way to teach programming today. As recently as, say, 2000 desktop applications written in VB were kind of cool and relevant. Today: not so much. In 2000 the original writer's daughter would probably have bugged her for a Windows laptop and not a Macbook Pro. > I'm trying to teach my girlfriend development and web development, it turns out, IS NOT a good place to start. I totally agree, which is why I would teach Javascript, not web development.
      - xauronx 13y ago
        And then what happens when they go "Ok, so... can I actually make anything with this? How would I use this in the real world?" Which is exactly what happened to me a week ago. Then you're on the hook for "Well, first you'll have to learn HTML, then you'll have to learn how to access the HTML from javascript... then you'll have to learn CSS to actually make it not look embarassing." I SUPPOSE I could make my novice girlfriend write a backend server in node with her new found looping and if/else if skills. I think once she gets the basics down I'm going to have to switch her over to objective-c, which is going to be a bitch but at least she can do something and see results. I love javascript, but it's not a fun and immediately rewarding experience like you get with a design->compile->run process.
peterevans 13y ago
>> High school bullies are typically quite good at restricting their bullying to times when they're unlikely to be spotted by an authority figure. > The author is being unfair when she is holding the teacher solely accountable for bullying. Come, now. Yours is not a reasonable conclusion to make from the blog post. It should be obvious to the reader that the bullies in question are responsible. The author's point was that the teacher shares responsibility in providing a safe environment for all students in the class. Perhaps you don't agree (and what a shame if you don't), but you should not misrepresent the author's argument to make your case.
- doctorwho 13y ago
  The teacher has a responsibility to provide a safe environment THAT ENDS AT THE DOOR TO THEIR CLASS. If the harassment happened out of view, is the teacher still responsible? Are you responsible for harassment that takes place at your workplace outside your cubicle? Students have remedies, they all know what they are. I knew. If the child spoke up to a teacher, principal, janitor, or anyone and the school did nothing then I'd side with the OP in a heartbeat. Absent any real facts about what happened I'd have to guess (and it's only a guess) that the teacher wasn't the problem here.
  - peterevans 13y ago
    > The teacher has a responsibility to provide a safe environment THAT ENDS AT THE DOOR TO THEIR CLASS. If the harassment happened out of view, is the teacher still responsible? Are you responsible for harassment that takes place at your workplace outside your cubicle? The teacher may be responsible, sure. The harassment happened; knowing that, it is an absolutely fair question to wonder if more could have been done by the teacher. > Students have remedies, they all know what they are. I knew. If the child spoke up to a teacher, principal, janitor, or anyone and the school did nothing then I'd side with the OP in a heartbeat. I feel it must be pointed out, and repeated if necessary, that someone does not need to report a wrong action for that action to be wrong. I know that's not exactly what you said. The author's daughter was harassed, and that is wrong. Full stop. > Absent any real facts about what happened I'd have to guess (and it's only a guess) that the teacher wasn't the problem here. If you are absent any real facts, why hazard a guess at all?
astrodust 13y ago
> VB is a fine language to get children interested in programming. If I had to take a Visual Basic class, I would've taken up woodworking as a career. Seriously, what the hell? It's awful.

by irahul 13y ago

Tloewald 13y ago

I think that if I were going to teach programming to high school kids I'd show them the console in Chrome / Safari, because it's something they all have easy access to (I assume we're talking about a first world country, right). VB seems to me to be a poor choice because it doesn't intersect with the kids' lives. They likely won't go home and build VB apps (on their Macs...) The console is like lifting the curtain and revealing the motor underneath something we all use every day.

irahul 13y ago
To each his own. I find web development(dynamic or just html/css) doesn't have the instant gratification something like VB has(it doesn't have to be VB). The main purpose of teaching programming to high-schoolers is to con them into learning it themselves. VB, despite its warts, was one of the most popular programming languages of its time. Excel and VB owe its popularity to the simple fact that they aren't hostile(or at least not as hostile as others) to newcomers.
- xauronx 13y ago
  As someone who learned programming in VB, I agree with you. As a junior high kid I was able to make things from business calculators to arcade style games. Was my code great? NO. Was it hip and trendy? Back then... maybe, but no. Am I now a successful programmer "who knows better" with a degree/full time job/start up? Yes. I'm not sure VB was a "make or break" factor in my education, but it certainly didn't help. Also, I'm trying to teach my girlfriend development and web development, it turns out, IS NOT a good place to start.
  - Tloewald 13y ago
    I learned to program in school using BASIC on an Apple II, and it was great, but that doesn't mean I think this is the way to teach programming today. As recently as, say, 2000 desktop applications written in VB were kind of cool and relevant. Today: not so much. In 2000 the original writer's daughter would probably have bugged her for a Windows laptop and not a Macbook Pro. > I'm trying to teach my girlfriend development and web development, it turns out, IS NOT a good place to start. I totally agree, which is why I would teach Javascript, not web development.
    - xauronx 13y ago
      And then what happens when they go "Ok, so... can I actually make anything with this? How would I use this in the real world?" Which is exactly what happened to me a week ago. Then you're on the hook for "Well, first you'll have to learn HTML, then you'll have to learn how to access the HTML from javascript... then you'll have to learn CSS to actually make it not look embarassing." I SUPPOSE I could make my novice girlfriend write a backend server in node with her new found looping and if/else if skills. I think once she gets the basics down I'm going to have to switch her over to objective-c, which is going to be a bitch but at least she can do something and see results. I love javascript, but it's not a fun and immediately rewarding experience like you get with a design->compile->run process.

peterevans 13y ago

>> High school bullies are typically quite good at restricting their bullying to times when they're unlikely to be spotted by an authority figure. > The author is being unfair when she is holding the teacher solely accountable for bullying. Come, now. Yours is not a reasonable conclusion to make from the blog post. It should be obvious to the reader that the bullies in question are responsible. The author's point was that the teacher shares responsibility in providing a safe environment for all students in the class. Perhaps you don't agree (and what a shame if you don't), but you should not misrepresent the author's argument to make your case.

doctorwho 13y ago
The teacher has a responsibility to provide a safe environment THAT ENDS AT THE DOOR TO THEIR CLASS. If the harassment happened out of view, is the teacher still responsible? Are you responsible for harassment that takes place at your workplace outside your cubicle? Students have remedies, they all know what they are. I knew. If the child spoke up to a teacher, principal, janitor, or anyone and the school did nothing then I'd side with the OP in a heartbeat. Absent any real facts about what happened I'd have to guess (and it's only a guess) that the teacher wasn't the problem here.
- peterevans 13y ago
  > The teacher has a responsibility to provide a safe environment THAT ENDS AT THE DOOR TO THEIR CLASS. If the harassment happened out of view, is the teacher still responsible? Are you responsible for harassment that takes place at your workplace outside your cubicle? The teacher may be responsible, sure. The harassment happened; knowing that, it is an absolutely fair question to wonder if more could have been done by the teacher. > Students have remedies, they all know what they are. I knew. If the child spoke up to a teacher, principal, janitor, or anyone and the school did nothing then I'd side with the OP in a heartbeat. I feel it must be pointed out, and repeated if necessary, that someone does not need to report a wrong action for that action to be wrong. I know that's not exactly what you said. The author's daughter was harassed, and that is wrong. Full stop. > Absent any real facts about what happened I'd have to guess (and it's only a guess) that the teacher wasn't the problem here. If you are absent any real facts, why hazard a guess at all?

astrodust 13y ago

> VB is a fine language to get children interested in programming. If I had to take a Visual Basic class, I would've taken up woodworking as a career. Seriously, what the hell? It's awful.