8 ms·

I totally agree with your comment, one thing though > a crappy experience in the male-dominated programming world. It's a bit far fetched to call a high schoo

by byroot 13y ago

I totally agree with your comment, one thing though > a crappy experience in the male-dominated programming world. It's a bit far fetched to call a high school level programing introduction class audience the "programming world". Given the amount of people that, even in totally CS oriented engineering school, give up, or aim at a management career after they discover what CS really is, I'm confident to guess that no more than 1 or 2 kids in this class will be one day professional programmers. I don't think this story as anything to do with sexism in IT. It's also possible (but we will never know) that she was bullied more because she was doing great in the course than because she was the only girl (which is still unacceptable of course).

acjohnson55 13y ago
Be that as it may, I think it's pretty likely the daughter thinks of the class as being representative the programming world.
- byroot 13y ago
  Since she is "friend with a linux kernel contributor, and ARM developer, etc", I wouldn't be so sure about that...
  - mjmahone17 13y ago
    But then there's all the women who take a programming class for the first time who aren't friends with industry experts. And even if this teenager is willing to give it another shot, I wouldn't blame her, or anyone, for feeling left out, and believing this is what the world of programmers is like. I know I made that mistake in high school: I actively dissociated from the male/techy-dominated "CS" kids in my school, due to the culture of the "nerdy male" that they cultivated, and only took my first course because I was lucky, and at a "Welcome to your new college's science programs" presentation was wowed by a CS professor's presentation. And I only stuck with it because again, I got lucky, and most the students in the intro course had little to no experience and didn't consider themselves computer geeks, and the course was much more about problem solving and new modes of thought, rather than being an exercise in "learning to program." And it didn't hurt that the course was taught by a woman who was excited about the material.
    - Tichy 13y ago
      You know how it feels if people dissociate from you in high school becasuse you seem nerdy? It's such a joke that feminists now try to turn that on the head and claim those nerds prevented them from programming for sexist reasons. No, those nerds did not become the bullies they hated in high school. You are still the bullies you were in high school, you just found new excuses (then: they seem nerdy, now: they are sexist). See, most male programmers stuck with it despite the bullying. They did not need special encouragement. Excuse me if I feel little enthusiasm for developers who need to be bribed into the profession.
      - 6d0debc071 13y ago
        These girls weren't even in school when you were getting bullied, many of them weren't even alive. The 'nerds' in school weren't in school at the time, and probably weren't even alive. There is no group of feminists that bullied nerds by disassociating with them (beyond what is acceptable in just not talking to people who don't share your interests) in this story 'claiming the nerds prevented them from programming for sexist reasons.' There is a girl getting treated like crap by people, for no good reasons, because of some group-politics sexism. You're just foisting the arguments of the past, of different people, onto the current generation - This isn't like there's some evil cheerleader figure who stumped nerds for years turning up and expecting them to welcome her into their programming fraternity.
        Tichy 13y ago
        I was responding to a comment, not the article. Perhaps you should read the comment before judging my reply. As for the article here, I am not yet convinced her ordeal was really as bad as the mum-with-an-agenda writer describes it. Impossible to know without knowing more context. Nevertheless I am always opposed to bullying, but unfortunately sometimes we have to deal with it. Calling for a nanny state to work things out for us is not always a workable solution.
DanBC 13y ago
> I don't think this story as anything to do with sexism in IT. I agree, but it'd be nice if it could be nipped in the bud. > It's also possible (but we will never know) that she was bullied more because she was doing great in the course than because she was the only girl (which is still unacceptable of course). Children are horrible to each other and will use anything. Ginger hair? Your life will be hell. Overweight? Your life will be hell. Only woman / man in the class? Your life will be hell. I agree that none of this is acceptable.
lsiebert 13y ago
The bullying took a sexist form. I don't care why, no female should ever be told they need to go to the kitchen and make sandwiches for the guys in a programming class. That's behavior that should be stopped, or preferably never happen. The expectation should have been set that it will not happen, that the cool programmers don't discriminate and are respectful of each other as individuals.
- asdasf 13y ago
  Do you know what it was like for the only guy in home ec? It is not a case of sexism, it has nothing to do with programmers (likely none of the students would identify with programmers at all). It is just normal bullying. The same kind that teenagers who are in a minority of some kind deal with all the time. Yes, it needs to be addressed. But pretending it is some other problem isn't going to help it be addressed.
  - hackinthebochs 13y ago
    I really have a hard time believing that anyone can think someone who says "make me a sandwich" isn't making a sexist remark. Don't get me wrong, I agree that in some contexts it can be given and received as a joke, but it is absolutely sexist. Just because males may receive gender-based outcasting in a home-ec class does not make that also sexist (are they harassing him to go bring her home a paycheck???), nor does it make the original case OK to disregard as "kids being kids".
    - asdasf 13y ago
      Nobody said the original case is OK. In fact, knowing in advance someone would advance that strawman, I preemptively addressed it in the post you replied to. I stated that it is bullying, not sexism. If you try to solve bullying by addressing sexism, you will fail.
      - hackinthebochs 13y ago
        >I stated that it is bullying, not sexism It's not mutually exclusive. The sexism comes from the culture that even makes "make me a sandwich" a remark to use in a bullying context. Bullying comes in all forms, but gender-based bullying has another insidious component in that it re-enforces sexist ideas and cultural norms. This is why addressing it independently is important. Just addressing bullying does not eliminate the culture where these terms derive their power.

by byroot 13y ago

acjohnson55 13y ago

Be that as it may, I think it's pretty likely the daughter thinks of the class as being representative the programming world.

byroot 13y ago
Since she is "friend with a linux kernel contributor, and ARM developer, etc", I wouldn't be so sure about that...
- mjmahone17 13y ago
  But then there's all the women who take a programming class for the first time who aren't friends with industry experts. And even if this teenager is willing to give it another shot, I wouldn't blame her, or anyone, for feeling left out, and believing this is what the world of programmers is like. I know I made that mistake in high school: I actively dissociated from the male/techy-dominated "CS" kids in my school, due to the culture of the "nerdy male" that they cultivated, and only took my first course because I was lucky, and at a "Welcome to your new college's science programs" presentation was wowed by a CS professor's presentation. And I only stuck with it because again, I got lucky, and most the students in the intro course had little to no experience and didn't consider themselves computer geeks, and the course was much more about problem solving and new modes of thought, rather than being an exercise in "learning to program." And it didn't hurt that the course was taught by a woman who was excited about the material.
  - Tichy 13y ago
    You know how it feels if people dissociate from you in high school becasuse you seem nerdy? It's such a joke that feminists now try to turn that on the head and claim those nerds prevented them from programming for sexist reasons. No, those nerds did not become the bullies they hated in high school. You are still the bullies you were in high school, you just found new excuses (then: they seem nerdy, now: they are sexist). See, most male programmers stuck with it despite the bullying. They did not need special encouragement. Excuse me if I feel little enthusiasm for developers who need to be bribed into the profession.
    - 6d0debc071 13y ago
      These girls weren't even in school when you were getting bullied, many of them weren't even alive. The 'nerds' in school weren't in school at the time, and probably weren't even alive. There is no group of feminists that bullied nerds by disassociating with them (beyond what is acceptable in just not talking to people who don't share your interests) in this story 'claiming the nerds prevented them from programming for sexist reasons.' There is a girl getting treated like crap by people, for no good reasons, because of some group-politics sexism. You're just foisting the arguments of the past, of different people, onto the current generation - This isn't like there's some evil cheerleader figure who stumped nerds for years turning up and expecting them to welcome her into their programming fraternity.
      - Tichy 13y ago
        I was responding to a comment, not the article. Perhaps you should read the comment before judging my reply. As for the article here, I am not yet convinced her ordeal was really as bad as the mum-with-an-agenda writer describes it. Impossible to know without knowing more context. Nevertheless I am always opposed to bullying, but unfortunately sometimes we have to deal with it. Calling for a nanny state to work things out for us is not always a workable solution.

DanBC 13y ago

> I don't think this story as anything to do with sexism in IT. I agree, but it'd be nice if it could be nipped in the bud. > It's also possible (but we will never know) that she was bullied more because she was doing great in the course than because she was the only girl (which is still unacceptable of course). Children are horrible to each other and will use anything. Ginger hair? Your life will be hell. Overweight? Your life will be hell. Only woman / man in the class? Your life will be hell. I agree that none of this is acceptable.

lsiebert 13y ago

The bullying took a sexist form. I don't care why, no female should ever be told they need to go to the kitchen and make sandwiches for the guys in a programming class. That's behavior that should be stopped, or preferably never happen. The expectation should have been set that it will not happen, that the cool programmers don't discriminate and are respectful of each other as individuals.

asdasf 13y ago
Do you know what it was like for the only guy in home ec? It is not a case of sexism, it has nothing to do with programmers (likely none of the students would identify with programmers at all). It is just normal bullying. The same kind that teenagers who are in a minority of some kind deal with all the time. Yes, it needs to be addressed. But pretending it is some other problem isn't going to help it be addressed.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago
  I really have a hard time believing that anyone can think someone who says "make me a sandwich" isn't making a sexist remark. Don't get me wrong, I agree that in some contexts it can be given and received as a joke, but it is absolutely sexist. Just because males may receive gender-based outcasting in a home-ec class does not make that also sexist (are they harassing him to go bring her home a paycheck???), nor does it make the original case OK to disregard as "kids being kids".
  - asdasf 13y ago
    Nobody said the original case is OK. In fact, knowing in advance someone would advance that strawman, I preemptively addressed it in the post you replied to. I stated that it is bullying, not sexism. If you try to solve bullying by addressing sexism, you will fail.
    - hackinthebochs 13y ago
      >I stated that it is bullying, not sexism It's not mutually exclusive. The sexism comes from the culture that even makes "make me a sandwich" a remark to use in a bullying context. Bullying comes in all forms, but gender-based bullying has another insidious component in that it re-enforces sexist ideas and cultural norms. This is why addressing it independently is important. Just addressing bullying does not eliminate the culture where these terms derive their power.