6 ms·

How many people go to real schools, and how many go to fake 'for profit' schools? And isn't the median student debt something like 25k? Not really "much much

by jlgreco 13y ago

How many people go to real schools, and how many go to fake 'for profit' schools? And isn't the median student debt something like 25k? Not really "much much more" in my book. Anyone with a real degree should be able to handle that sort of debt. What we should be doing is allowing lenders to discriminate by major and school. Good school with a good degree? Lend. Good school with a shitty degree? Lend with extreme caution caution. Fake school with any sort of degree? Tell them to kindly fuck off.

dnautics 13y ago
> What we should be doing is allowing lenders to discriminate by major and school. Good school with a good degree? Lend. Good school with a shitty degree? Lend with extreme caution caution. Fake school with any sort of degree? Tell them to kindly fuck off. No disagreement here. I don't want to give the perception that I think "for-profit" higher education is problem-free. I do think they have severe problems, but putting a disproportionate amount of attention on them is distracting to the problem that the "non-profits" are - which has a bigger societal impact, since they are serving more people. "For-profits" are just an easy target because of the broad social perception that profits breed evil, where many of those evildoings are just as bad in the "non-profit" higher educational sector.
- rayiner 13y ago
  No, for-profits are a problem. They account for 10-13% of students, but 25% of student loans, and 50% of defaults. They have no academic standards, because they have no concern for academic reputation in the way traditional institutions do, and can seek to enroll the largest possible classes without worrying about keeping up GPA/SAT medians.
  - muzz 13y ago
    Agreed. Article in San Jose Mercury News just yesterday: http://www.mercurynews.com/education/ci_24041125/profit-colleges-soaking-up-tax-dollars-despite-student http://www.mercurynews.com/education/ci_24041125/profit-coll... The good news: "Last year California cut from its tuition aid program more than 130 private colleges with low graduation rates and too many student loan defaults. Some wonder if the federal government will follow the state's lead to hold colleges responsible for their performance. Today, only 50 for-profit schools in California remain eligible for state-subsidized tuition; 115 do not"
    - pyre 13y ago
      > low graduation rates > hold colleges responsible for their performance Sounds like a recipe for lowered standards...
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        That's why you factor in job placement rates. Degree-mills are already a problem.
        fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
        For "workforce training" in Texas, we have a rolling average criteria (along with several other metrics). Which is good, because economic fluctuations affect the job market. Some classes just can't seem to catch a break. To add to that, they tighten the noose with every legislative session. It appears to be the intention to make our pay proportional to "graduate success"; which will likely end up meaning GPA. That would put the same incentives in place for public college instructors that have existed in for-profit schools.
      - thomaslangston 13y ago
        Loan default rates were also mentioned.
  - dnautics 13y ago
    I agree that for-profits are a problem. To put my objection more clearly: Don't use the IRS designation to whitewash "non-profits", which are in many ways acting just as atrociously as "for-profits" anyway. Your statistics miss something important - the socioeconomic class that is consuming the non-profit product comes with some inherently lesser risks vis a vis default (for example: I presume more "non-profit" college consumers are going to be able to cover their asses, debt-wise, with help from their parents). What happens when you correct for that, what is the magnitude of difference? The "non-profit" statistics also encompass schools where you are clearly going to have less of a problem getting a job afterward. What happens if you look at the LOWEST tier of "non-profit" university and compare it to the "for-profit"? I would presume that you would find very little difference.
  - cloverich 13y ago
    Am i the only person that see's those types of numbers, and correlates them with the type of students the school attracts - the student who did not - or could not - enter into an accredited 'regular' university? Which is not to say that should necessarily impact the degree of scrutiny those schools receive. But perhaps worth considering - if they are serving students who are likely to get no education at all, is it better / worse? Honest, question - no implications here. Just think its something worth discussing.
    - dnautics 13y ago
      these students are worse off. Because now they have a useless degree, some sunk time, and debt. But I think non-profits can be just as bad if not even worse, because the degree is still useless, there's just as much sunk time, and even more debt (since many nonprofits are more expensive than for-profits).
r00fus 13y ago
This is similar to a proposal by the Obama administration to prevent loan-milling by Wall St. owned private schools.
- onebaddude 13y ago
  When will a "Godwin's Law" type rule be introduced for the inevitability that the problem being discussed eventually gets blamed on Wall Street?
  - ctdonath 13y ago
    Call it...Godwin's Wall?
  - r00fus 13y ago
    As soon as Wall St. reigns in their tendency to profit off just about every thing they can imagine, legal or not [1] - seeing as they can just buy off the regulators or lawmakers. [1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-31/money-laundering-banks-still-get-a-pass-from-u-s-.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-31/money-laundering-ba...

by jlgreco 13y ago

dnautics 13y ago

> What we should be doing is allowing lenders to discriminate by major and school. Good school with a good degree? Lend. Good school with a shitty degree? Lend with extreme caution caution. Fake school with any sort of degree? Tell them to kindly fuck off. No disagreement here. I don't want to give the perception that I think "for-profit" higher education is problem-free. I do think they have severe problems, but putting a disproportionate amount of attention on them is distracting to the problem that the "non-profits" are - which has a bigger societal impact, since they are serving more people. "For-profits" are just an easy target because of the broad social perception that profits breed evil, where many of those evildoings are just as bad in the "non-profit" higher educational sector.

rayiner 13y ago
No, for-profits are a problem. They account for 10-13% of students, but 25% of student loans, and 50% of defaults. They have no academic standards, because they have no concern for academic reputation in the way traditional institutions do, and can seek to enroll the largest possible classes without worrying about keeping up GPA/SAT medians.
- muzz 13y ago
  Agreed. Article in San Jose Mercury News just yesterday: http://www.mercurynews.com/education/ci_24041125/profit-colleges-soaking-up-tax-dollars-despite-student http://www.mercurynews.com/education/ci_24041125/profit-coll... The good news: "Last year California cut from its tuition aid program more than 130 private colleges with low graduation rates and too many student loan defaults. Some wonder if the federal government will follow the state's lead to hold colleges responsible for their performance. Today, only 50 for-profit schools in California remain eligible for state-subsidized tuition; 115 do not"
  - pyre 13y ago
    > low graduation rates > hold colleges responsible for their performance Sounds like a recipe for lowered standards...
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      That's why you factor in job placement rates. Degree-mills are already a problem.
      - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
        For "workforce training" in Texas, we have a rolling average criteria (along with several other metrics). Which is good, because economic fluctuations affect the job market. Some classes just can't seem to catch a break. To add to that, they tighten the noose with every legislative session. It appears to be the intention to make our pay proportional to "graduate success"; which will likely end up meaning GPA. That would put the same incentives in place for public college instructors that have existed in for-profit schools.
    - thomaslangston 13y ago
      Loan default rates were also mentioned.
- dnautics 13y ago
  I agree that for-profits are a problem. To put my objection more clearly: Don't use the IRS designation to whitewash "non-profits", which are in many ways acting just as atrociously as "for-profits" anyway. Your statistics miss something important - the socioeconomic class that is consuming the non-profit product comes with some inherently lesser risks vis a vis default (for example: I presume more "non-profit" college consumers are going to be able to cover their asses, debt-wise, with help from their parents). What happens when you correct for that, what is the magnitude of difference? The "non-profit" statistics also encompass schools where you are clearly going to have less of a problem getting a job afterward. What happens if you look at the LOWEST tier of "non-profit" university and compare it to the "for-profit"? I would presume that you would find very little difference.
- cloverich 13y ago
  Am i the only person that see's those types of numbers, and correlates them with the type of students the school attracts - the student who did not - or could not - enter into an accredited 'regular' university? Which is not to say that should necessarily impact the degree of scrutiny those schools receive. But perhaps worth considering - if they are serving students who are likely to get no education at all, is it better / worse? Honest, question - no implications here. Just think its something worth discussing.
  - dnautics 13y ago
    these students are worse off. Because now they have a useless degree, some sunk time, and debt. But I think non-profits can be just as bad if not even worse, because the degree is still useless, there's just as much sunk time, and even more debt (since many nonprofits are more expensive than for-profits).

r00fus 13y ago

This is similar to a proposal by the Obama administration to prevent loan-milling by Wall St. owned private schools.

onebaddude 13y ago
When will a "Godwin's Law" type rule be introduced for the inevitability that the problem being discussed eventually gets blamed on Wall Street?
- ctdonath 13y ago
  Call it...Godwin's Wall?
- r00fus 13y ago
  As soon as Wall St. reigns in their tendency to profit off just about every thing they can imagine, legal or not [1] - seeing as they can just buy off the regulators or lawmakers. [1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-31/money-laundering-banks-still-get-a-pass-from-u-s-.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-31/money-laundering-ba...