7 ms·

On Funemployment (and My Next Job)

77 points by emiller829 13y ago

ido 13y ago
And what if you don't find a job that meets these criteria?
wambotron 13y ago
Good luck finding something like that. I don't think it will be easy
tptacek 13y ago
How does a company with 6 weeks runway manage to hire someone like this?
- emiller829 13y ago
  Fair question. There were a series of unforeseen circumstances that cut the runway tragically short. The stories you've probably read are missing a lot of info.
- vinceguidry 13y ago
  I think you're underestimating the seductive lure of the startup and what it can do to the judgment of otherwise whip-smart people. Also just how well management can hide deep structural problems from the staff. Nobody understood how badly Ecomom was doing until after Jody committed suicide.
  - loganfrederick 13y ago
    Don't join a company without understanding its cash flow. If a startups founders can't give you their runway, then you don't have to risk your career on something that might shut down in a week.
- bluedino 13y ago
  From the post he links to: >> the loss last week of a planned follow-on investment leaves us little time to secure an alternate source of capital
- icedchai 13y ago
  Isn't it obvious? Poor management.
_pmf_ 13y ago
A blog post quoting your own tweets? Seriously?
- JanneVee 13y ago
  For giving context for those who don't follow him on twitter?
linuxlizard 13y ago
I wonder if he has a mortgage and/or kids.
- emiller829 13y ago
  Both.
  - the_chrismo 13y ago
    It's worse than that, he's mortgaged his children.
    - emiller829 13y ago
      I got a killer interest rate, though.
  - linuxlizard 13y ago
    Good on you! No sarcasm. Good on you for wanting a great job while still supporting a family. It's a tough balancing act.
    - emiller829 13y ago
      Thanks. I find the need to support my family the reason I must push for a great job. I want to both provide the best I can for them, and also to love what I do, so I still have energy left to invest in them at the end of my day.
- mahyarm 13y ago
  When you live in lousivillie and make six figures, having savings that can support that can last years!
tom_b 13y ago
Nothing is quite the gut punch like a job that simply evaporates. Good luck in your search. Commenting from the enterprise programmer perspective, I have seen talented, well-credentialed, strong portfolio-wielding, but lesser-networked hackers spend significant amounts of time (up to a year) on the sideline while seeking work in my region. Hackers should remember that this actually happens. Build a bit of a cash cushion. Be prepared to invest in yourself (http://www.paulgraham.com/badeconomy.html http://www.paulgraham.com/badeconomy.html). If you stay or return to the enterprise world, don't join a "cost center" group.
danielrmay 13y ago
Unfortunately the majority of us don't get to be so picky when choosing a job - especially when we've just been laid off so suddenly.
- tommoor 13y ago
  Ernie has built up a solid reputation through hard work, you can too! Then you get to be picky ;)
henrik_w 13y ago
I think you have to compromise on some points in pretty much all jobs. It's very hard to get every single point right. The key is to compromise on the right things. I wrote my own list of what I look for in a new job not so long ago: http://henrikwarne.com/2013/03/26/what-do-programmers-want/ http://henrikwarne.com/2013/03/26/what-do-programmers-want/
henrik_w 13y ago
I don't know about "funemployment". Not knowing what your next job is going to be takes a lot of the fun out of all the time you have (at least that's my experience). A much better situation is knowing that you'll start in say 3 months - then you can really enjoy the free time. Usually though, companies want you to start as soon as possible, so that rarely works out.
- mathattack 13y ago
  I'm with you. The fun part of funemployment only lasts 2 weeks or so, or when the first rejection comes in. That said, I found unemployment to be a great time to get fit. It's a rare time where working out for 90 minutes doesn't unduly impact other parts of life.
  - jmduke 13y ago
    Better yet: it's a great time to develop a habit of exercise! It's not even a big time commitment (a simple lifting program will take you around 45 minutes every other day; a cardio program will probably take you twice that), and once you get into a habit of it its much easier to integrate into a busier schedule.
    - hablahaha 13y ago
      I was just thinking about doing this exact thing if I ever had a chance for funemployment. Exercise more, plan and prepare better meals, get a better sleep schedule. This is such a great suggestion, much different than just suggesting to work on side projects, building up your resume, etc.
      - mathattack 13y ago
        It's actually in addition to all of that. Treating your body better also helps with self confidence and coping with stress. The routines can last after the job search is over, though perhaps just not with as much intensity or duration.
      - 13y ago
agentultra 13y ago
There's very little in the way of commercial software development that makes me, "want to program wet and naked." The kinds of things in programming that get me going are mostly academic at this point and the application of technology that I am interested in I am not qualified for at the engineering level... so I just have to make my bills and study Hilbert's absolute proofs and meta-mathematics in my own time (which is very little these days). Maybe it's different for you and I hope you do find something like that because there's nothing like it. But for practical reasons you may consider just doing a job and not expecting to derive happiness and fulfillment from every waking moment of your day. Update: Not that you can't find happiness and fulfillment from doing a good job and making people happy. ;)
jonnathanson 13y ago
Forgive me, but I'm a little confused by the structure of your blog post. You take us from an understandable point A (being laid off b/c your employer closed shop) to a strange point B (a list of fairly restrictive requirements for your next job). I don't get how B follows from A. That structure is basically "I just got laid off, and now I'm not looking to relocate to find a new job, but I am looking for an even better one with more money." I know you don't intend to come off that way, but to the casual reader, you sort of do. The more interesting post, IMO, would have attempted to mine some insights from the experience. I mean, shit, man, you were hired into what sounds like an awesome job, and then had to leave 6 weeks later. Six weeks! That's a story in and of itself. What has that experience taught you? What has it taught you about the nature of jobs, about the job market, about startups, about the developer's life, about yourself? And how does all of that lead into what you're looking for in a new job? You're in a very unfortunate situation, and that sucks, and I hope you land an awesome new gig soon. You're a smart and hardworking guy. But we need insights from these sorts of experiences, because they're probably not as uncommon as we might imagine. Your experience could, theoretically, happen to anyone here. So what would you take from it that you feel we need to know?
- gnufied 13y ago
  I do not understand why B has to follow A. You are also assuming he is in a unfortunate situation somehow, But knowing him (as a fellow Rubyist) I think he will have at least 10-15 offers sitting in his Inbox right now. I don't know why you find points he has laid out as "strange" as well,But I think it is a disservice to yourself as a programmer if you are going to settle for anything else. For example: 1. Can't relocate -> fair enough, it is hard to relocate if you have families. I have one of our smartest programmer working with us remotely. 2.My next job will not be a contract -> It should be self-evident. Contract workers are second class citizens. 3.My next job will stretch me -> Can you argue with this one? Daniel Pink in his book "Drive" argue the very same points. I can go on, but will stop. And oh good luck Ernie (Your contributions to Rails are much appreciated).
  - emiller829 13y ago
    Thanks for the kind words!
joblessinnyc 13y ago
You're very lucky. I'm starting to think that we imagine the market is better than what it actually is. This is my story: I moved to the US on March after working on a fast growing an successful European start-up for 4 years. The one where everyone wants to work at: lots of "I want to get out of the shower and code" problems, smart colleagues and excellent compensation. I took 5 months off to get used to this country, travel and finish some personal projects I had in my mind since long ago. Four weeks ago I started to actively look for a job and dude... I'm shitting in my pants about the idea that I may have to go back to Europe. I'm allowed to work in the US, I have a decent Github profile and couple of LinkedIn recommendation (if they're useful or not, I don't know). I've lead teams before, I've funded a company right out of college and sold it for a profit two years later. I've applied to ~20 job offers and so far I only got two replies: for one I already dealt with HR and it's been a week since they told me they'll set up an Skype interview with one engineer (Yes, I'll follow up Today on that one). For the other one, they were looking for Java-enterprisey guy and I told them that Java is not something that I can say I'm an expert with, but that I could get up to speed in one or two months at the most. They said they'll call again... in six months. HNers: I'm looking for your advice here. Do you see something wrong with my approach? What else should I try? Am I just too anxious? Because it seems to me that everyone take forever to answer! I'm really scared, because I left a lot of things behind on the idea that finding a job in New York City would be easy as cake and now I'm facing reality. I don't have a network that I could leverage here in New York. I'm trying to build one, but that could take more time than the one I could resist before exploding in desperation and handling my resume to companies outside my field of expertise. Thanks!
- ericabiz 13y ago
  If you would like a response, it's best if you're not anonymous. I am a hiring manager and I've interviewed (at this point) hundreds of techies, and I'm sure I'm not alone in being in this position on Hacker News. However, the only way we can really help is to know more. Post your Github profile and your LinkedIn profile, and let us know what you're looking for. Who knows--you may even score a job!
  - ChuckMcM 13y ago
ChuckMcM 13y ago
Great post Ernie, I'm sure you will do fine. I think you miss the bravado though that is in some of those 'funemployment' tweets, its a scary thing to be out of work and not actually interviewing anywhere. One way we fight back our fears is to loudly profess their non-existence. It helps for a while. That said, the difference between a 'hot mature' market and a 'hot new' market are starting to become clear to a lot of people. In the 'hot new' version there is demand for anyone who can fill the role, in the 'hot mature' version there is demand for a role at a certain compensation rate. It's the latter that has caught out a lot of people I know, who "grew up" in a company, signing on out of college, working 10, 15, 20 years, and then finding themselves out of work. What has happened is that their salary ratcheted up with annual reviews but the supply of candidates increased dramatically. Their faced with the question of taking a job with a 30% pay cut, or not working. It brings on a whole host of emotions about self worth and future prospects. Engineers, especially software engineers, are becoming somewhat commoditized and that changes a lot of employment dynamics.
opendomain 13y ago
I know that you are not looking for Contract work, but I looking for someone to create a rails tutorial for the http://www.RubyRails.Com http://www.RubyRails.Com . The content would be Free and the project would support open source. contact me at Ric AT HNusername DOT org
Jayschwa 13y ago
I hope it works out for you. I deliberately took a year off for funemployment. I did some new things, learned some new things, and eventually wound up as a student at hackerschool.com. I found a nice gig through them, which I start in two weeks.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
chrisbennet 13y ago
When I'm between jobs I tell my friends "I'm not unemployed. I'm a man of leisure". :-)

77 points by emiller829 13y ago

ido 13y ago

And what if you don't find a job that meets these criteria?

wambotron 13y ago

Good luck finding something like that. I don't think it will be easy

tptacek 13y ago

How does a company with 6 weeks runway manage to hire someone like this?

emiller829 13y ago
Fair question. There were a series of unforeseen circumstances that cut the runway tragically short. The stories you've probably read are missing a lot of info.
vinceguidry 13y ago
I think you're underestimating the seductive lure of the startup and what it can do to the judgment of otherwise whip-smart people. Also just how well management can hide deep structural problems from the staff. Nobody understood how badly Ecomom was doing until after Jody committed suicide.
- loganfrederick 13y ago
  Don't join a company without understanding its cash flow. If a startups founders can't give you their runway, then you don't have to risk your career on something that might shut down in a week.
bluedino 13y ago
From the post he links to: >> the loss last week of a planned follow-on investment leaves us little time to secure an alternate source of capital
icedchai 13y ago
Isn't it obvious? Poor management.

_pmf_ 13y ago

A blog post quoting your own tweets? Seriously?

JanneVee 13y ago
For giving context for those who don't follow him on twitter?

linuxlizard 13y ago

I wonder if he has a mortgage and/or kids.

emiller829 13y ago
Both.
- the_chrismo 13y ago
  It's worse than that, he's mortgaged his children.
  - emiller829 13y ago
    I got a killer interest rate, though.
- linuxlizard 13y ago
  Good on you! No sarcasm. Good on you for wanting a great job while still supporting a family. It's a tough balancing act.
  - emiller829 13y ago
    Thanks. I find the need to support my family the reason I must push for a great job. I want to both provide the best I can for them, and also to love what I do, so I still have energy left to invest in them at the end of my day.
mahyarm 13y ago
When you live in lousivillie and make six figures, having savings that can support that can last years!

tom_b 13y ago

Nothing is quite the gut punch like a job that simply evaporates. Good luck in your search. Commenting from the enterprise programmer perspective, I have seen talented, well-credentialed, strong portfolio-wielding, but lesser-networked hackers spend significant amounts of time (up to a year) on the sideline while seeking work in my region. Hackers should remember that this actually happens. Build a bit of a cash cushion. Be prepared to invest in yourself (http://www.paulgraham.com/badeconomy.html http://www.paulgraham.com/badeconomy.html). If you stay or return to the enterprise world, don't join a "cost center" group.

danielrmay 13y ago

Unfortunately the majority of us don't get to be so picky when choosing a job - especially when we've just been laid off so suddenly.

tommoor 13y ago
Ernie has built up a solid reputation through hard work, you can too! Then you get to be picky ;)

henrik_w 13y ago

I think you have to compromise on some points in pretty much all jobs. It's very hard to get every single point right. The key is to compromise on the right things. I wrote my own list of what I look for in a new job not so long ago: http://henrikwarne.com/2013/03/26/what-do-programmers-want/ http://henrikwarne.com/2013/03/26/what-do-programmers-want/

henrik_w 13y ago

I don't know about "funemployment". Not knowing what your next job is going to be takes a lot of the fun out of all the time you have (at least that's my experience). A much better situation is knowing that you'll start in say 3 months - then you can really enjoy the free time. Usually though, companies want you to start as soon as possible, so that rarely works out.

mathattack 13y ago
I'm with you. The fun part of funemployment only lasts 2 weeks or so, or when the first rejection comes in. That said, I found unemployment to be a great time to get fit. It's a rare time where working out for 90 minutes doesn't unduly impact other parts of life.
- jmduke 13y ago
  Better yet: it's a great time to develop a habit of exercise! It's not even a big time commitment (a simple lifting program will take you around 45 minutes every other day; a cardio program will probably take you twice that), and once you get into a habit of it its much easier to integrate into a busier schedule.
  - hablahaha 13y ago
    I was just thinking about doing this exact thing if I ever had a chance for funemployment. Exercise more, plan and prepare better meals, get a better sleep schedule. This is such a great suggestion, much different than just suggesting to work on side projects, building up your resume, etc.
    - mathattack 13y ago
      It's actually in addition to all of that. Treating your body better also helps with self confidence and coping with stress. The routines can last after the job search is over, though perhaps just not with as much intensity or duration.
    - 13y ago

agentultra 13y ago

There's very little in the way of commercial software development that makes me, "want to program wet and naked." The kinds of things in programming that get me going are mostly academic at this point and the application of technology that I am interested in I am not qualified for at the engineering level... so I just have to make my bills and study Hilbert's absolute proofs and meta-mathematics in my own time (which is very little these days). Maybe it's different for you and I hope you do find something like that because there's nothing like it. But for practical reasons you may consider just doing a job and not expecting to derive happiness and fulfillment from every waking moment of your day. Update: Not that you can't find happiness and fulfillment from doing a good job and making people happy. ;)

jonnathanson 13y ago

Forgive me, but I'm a little confused by the structure of your blog post. You take us from an understandable point A (being laid off b/c your employer closed shop) to a strange point B (a list of fairly restrictive requirements for your next job). I don't get how B follows from A. That structure is basically "I just got laid off, and now I'm not looking to relocate to find a new job, but I am looking for an even better one with more money." I know you don't intend to come off that way, but to the casual reader, you sort of do. The more interesting post, IMO, would have attempted to mine some insights from the experience. I mean, shit, man, you were hired into what sounds like an awesome job, and then had to leave 6 weeks later. Six weeks! That's a story in and of itself. What has that experience taught you? What has it taught you about the nature of jobs, about the job market, about startups, about the developer's life, about yourself? And how does all of that lead into what you're looking for in a new job? You're in a very unfortunate situation, and that sucks, and I hope you land an awesome new gig soon. You're a smart and hardworking guy. But we need insights from these sorts of experiences, because they're probably not as uncommon as we might imagine. Your experience could, theoretically, happen to anyone here. So what would you take from it that you feel we need to know?

gnufied 13y ago
I do not understand why B has to follow A. You are also assuming he is in a unfortunate situation somehow, But knowing him (as a fellow Rubyist) I think he will have at least 10-15 offers sitting in his Inbox right now. I don't know why you find points he has laid out as "strange" as well,But I think it is a disservice to yourself as a programmer if you are going to settle for anything else. For example: 1. Can't relocate -> fair enough, it is hard to relocate if you have families. I have one of our smartest programmer working with us remotely. 2.My next job will not be a contract -> It should be self-evident. Contract workers are second class citizens. 3.My next job will stretch me -> Can you argue with this one? Daniel Pink in his book "Drive" argue the very same points. I can go on, but will stop. And oh good luck Ernie (Your contributions to Rails are much appreciated).
- emiller829 13y ago
  Thanks for the kind words!

joblessinnyc 13y ago

You're very lucky. I'm starting to think that we imagine the market is better than what it actually is. This is my story: I moved to the US on March after working on a fast growing an successful European start-up for 4 years. The one where everyone wants to work at: lots of "I want to get out of the shower and code" problems, smart colleagues and excellent compensation. I took 5 months off to get used to this country, travel and finish some personal projects I had in my mind since long ago. Four weeks ago I started to actively look for a job and dude... I'm shitting in my pants about the idea that I may have to go back to Europe. I'm allowed to work in the US, I have a decent Github profile and couple of LinkedIn recommendation (if they're useful or not, I don't know). I've lead teams before, I've funded a company right out of college and sold it for a profit two years later. I've applied to ~20 job offers and so far I only got two replies: for one I already dealt with HR and it's been a week since they told me they'll set up an Skype interview with one engineer (Yes, I'll follow up Today on that one). For the other one, they were looking for Java-enterprisey guy and I told them that Java is not something that I can say I'm an expert with, but that I could get up to speed in one or two months at the most. They said they'll call again... in six months. HNers: I'm looking for your advice here. Do you see something wrong with my approach? What else should I try? Am I just too anxious? Because it seems to me that everyone take forever to answer! I'm really scared, because I left a lot of things behind on the idea that finding a job in New York City would be easy as cake and now I'm facing reality. I don't have a network that I could leverage here in New York. I'm trying to build one, but that could take more time than the one I could resist before exploding in desperation and handling my resume to companies outside my field of expertise. Thanks!

ericabiz 13y ago
If you would like a response, it's best if you're not anonymous. I am a hiring manager and I've interviewed (at this point) hundreds of techies, and I'm sure I'm not alone in being in this position on Hacker News. However, the only way we can really help is to know more. Post your Github profile and your LinkedIn profile, and let us know what you're looking for. Who knows--you may even score a job!
- ChuckMcM 13y ago

ChuckMcM 13y ago

Great post Ernie, I'm sure you will do fine. I think you miss the bravado though that is in some of those 'funemployment' tweets, its a scary thing to be out of work and not actually interviewing anywhere. One way we fight back our fears is to loudly profess their non-existence. It helps for a while. That said, the difference between a 'hot mature' market and a 'hot new' market are starting to become clear to a lot of people. In the 'hot new' version there is demand for anyone who can fill the role, in the 'hot mature' version there is demand for a role at a certain compensation rate. It's the latter that has caught out a lot of people I know, who "grew up" in a company, signing on out of college, working 10, 15, 20 years, and then finding themselves out of work. What has happened is that their salary ratcheted up with annual reviews but the supply of candidates increased dramatically. Their faced with the question of taking a job with a 30% pay cut, or not working. It brings on a whole host of emotions about self worth and future prospects. Engineers, especially software engineers, are becoming somewhat commoditized and that changes a lot of employment dynamics.

opendomain 13y ago

I know that you are not looking for Contract work, but I looking for someone to create a rails tutorial for the http://www.RubyRails.Com http://www.RubyRails.Com . The content would be Free and the project would support open source. contact me at Ric AT HNusername DOT org

Jayschwa 13y ago

I hope it works out for you. I deliberately took a year off for funemployment. I did some new things, learned some new things, and eventually wound up as a student at hackerschool.com. I found a nice gig through them, which I start in two weeks.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

chrisbennet 13y ago

When I'm between jobs I tell my friends "I'm not unemployed. I'm a man of leisure". :-)