5 ms·

What if, let's just make this hypothetical for a second, woman want men to stare at their breasts? Would you still have an issue?

chris_wot 13y ago
Where you are going with this is so ridiculous I won't be responding, other than with this response!
- laichzeit0 13y ago
  It's not ridiculous at all. It's one of the fundamental assumptions you're making in all your arguments but unwilling to put down as an axiom.
  - chris_wot 13y ago
    Fine, I'll respond then. If some women don't find it offensive, all I need to find are women who did find it offensive, belittling, discouraging or isolating. Or some men who believed it was offensive, belittling, discouraging or isolating to women. Like myself and a bunch of others.
    - laichzeit0 13y ago
      Yes and what will you conclude from that? Some find it offensive, some do not. It's by no means universal and some kind of "necessary truth".
      - chris_wot 13y ago
        Many do find it offensive. As many find the word "nigger" racist, but some do not doesn't disprove that it is a racist term. So it is here.
        WayneDB 13y ago
        A word can't be racist. A word can be used by racists, but the word itself - no. There is a whole spectrum out there. The word "nigger" is a term of endearment for many.
sp332 13y ago
This hypothetical is not useful. You don't have to take it as an arbitrary "axiom" for the argument; you could empirically measure some of the women who are offended by this talk.
- laichzeit0 13y ago
  The reason why it's useful is because in your case (empirically measure) it becomes at best "relative". There may be cultures / societies where woman desire men to stare at their breasts. In this case his argument would mean naught.
  - chris_wot 13y ago
    Was the app presented in such a culture? Where are you going with this?
  - sp332 13y ago
    Maybe? My point is, empirically, we are not in that culture! Edit: oh wait... You're saying that maybe the guys in the presentation are not reducing women to their physical bits, but actually treating them as human beings who like being treated this way? If so there is a simple way to disprove it: The women can't say "no". Since the women are not given any agency, they are not being treated as human beings but as mere objects with no control over how their bodies are used.
pstack 13y ago
I think we would be better served if we stopped seeing everything as sexist or not sexist and determining that if a thing is not, then everyone should shut up and leave it alone. Instead, let's dispense with the labels or making anyone out to be bad and simply think about our moms. There are countless things that are not sexist or wrong in any capacity, whatsoever. You still wouldn't feel comfortable doing them around your mom. If it would feel awkward around your mom, then it might not be appropriate for a lot of wider audiences. Especially where we are potentially involving a professional capacity.

chris_wot 13y ago

Where you are going with this is so ridiculous I won't be responding, other than with this response!

laichzeit0 13y ago
It's not ridiculous at all. It's one of the fundamental assumptions you're making in all your arguments but unwilling to put down as an axiom.
- chris_wot 13y ago
  Fine, I'll respond then. If some women don't find it offensive, all I need to find are women who did find it offensive, belittling, discouraging or isolating. Or some men who believed it was offensive, belittling, discouraging or isolating to women. Like myself and a bunch of others.
  - laichzeit0 13y ago
    Yes and what will you conclude from that? Some find it offensive, some do not. It's by no means universal and some kind of "necessary truth".
    - chris_wot 13y ago
      Many do find it offensive. As many find the word "nigger" racist, but some do not doesn't disprove that it is a racist term. So it is here.
      - WayneDB 13y ago
        A word can't be racist. A word can be used by racists, but the word itself - no. There is a whole spectrum out there. The word "nigger" is a term of endearment for many.

sp332 13y ago

This hypothetical is not useful. You don't have to take it as an arbitrary "axiom" for the argument; you could empirically measure some of the women who are offended by this talk.

laichzeit0 13y ago
The reason why it's useful is because in your case (empirically measure) it becomes at best "relative". There may be cultures / societies where woman desire men to stare at their breasts. In this case his argument would mean naught.
- chris_wot 13y ago
  Was the app presented in such a culture? Where are you going with this?
- sp332 13y ago
  Maybe? My point is, empirically, we are not in that culture! Edit: oh wait... You're saying that maybe the guys in the presentation are not reducing women to their physical bits, but actually treating them as human beings who like being treated this way? If so there is a simple way to disprove it: The women can't say "no". Since the women are not given any agency, they are not being treated as human beings but as mere objects with no control over how their bodies are used.

pstack 13y ago

I think we would be better served if we stopped seeing everything as sexist or not sexist and determining that if a thing is not, then everyone should shut up and leave it alone. Instead, let's dispense with the labels or making anyone out to be bad and simply think about our moms. There are countless things that are not sexist or wrong in any capacity, whatsoever. You still wouldn't feel comfortable doing them around your mom. If it would feel awkward around your mom, then it might not be appropriate for a lot of wider audiences. Especially where we are potentially involving a professional capacity.