3 ms·

Feminism is about the equality of opportunity and power. You cannot create a picture of equal sexism by demonstrating a low-power, low-economic status, low opp

by sambeau 13y ago

Feminism is about the equality of opportunity and power. You cannot create a picture of equal sexism by demonstrating a low-power, low-economic status, low opportunity-of-career-advancement role (that has traditionally been a female-only occupation due in-part to traditional gender-specific roles around child-rearing) where men who choose to enter it are viewed with scepticism. Especially if that role includes close, private contact with young children. Feminists like me want an equal share of the good jobs for women throughout all strata of all industries. Men will undoubtably have to take up some of the low-paid shit jobs to compensate—but that is equality. Sexism is a female only problem and will continue to be as long as men hold most of the power and are afforded most of the best opportunities.

qwerty500 13y ago
"Sexism is a female only problem and will continue to be as long as men hold most of the power and are afforded most of the best opportunities." Can you name one company who wouldn't take a more competent female developer over a male developer?
- sambeau 13y ago
  I have worked for many. How many female developers does your company have? Mine has 0/6. My previous company, that actively sought female developers had around 15%, the company before that had 3 out of 100+, before that one out of 30. Women make up 51% of the population and, at least in the UK, are getting better school results in science & maths than men. And yet what percentage of the developer population is female? 10%? more? less? So it looks like either the companies are not taking the more competent developers or the women are less competent. Are you therefore claiming that female developers are less competent than male developers?
cliveowen 13y ago
Do you realize that preventing someone from getting a job because "has traditionally been a female-only occupation due in-part to traditional gender-specific roles around child-rearing" and that "men who choose to enter it are viewed with scepticism" is the very definition of sexism? Sexism isn't about the industry or about career advancement is about discrimination against a gender for a given category of jobs.
- sambeau 13y ago
  Show me proof of prevention. You are confusing cause and effect. You are concentrating on a tiny percentage of evidence in the counter direction hugely outbalanced by the weight of evidence in the main direction. Sexism is a huge problem for women and a tiny problem for men. So small, in fact, it statistically it does not exist. Look at the balance of the scales not the tiny fleck on one side. Sexism is about balance not uniformity. It is about power and opportunity. Not everything has to be equal for us to eradicate it. As long as the problem is stacked against women we should be concentrating on sexism against women.
marvin 13y ago
You had me up until "Sexism is a female only problem". This is provably false for any sane definition of sexism. Try being a male nurse or kindergarten teacher, getting an allegation of sexual abuse taken seriously, looking at the statistics of criminal charges vs. convictions by gender etc.
- sambeau 13y ago
  Sexism is not a problem for men as long as men hold most of the power and are afforded most of the best opportunities. Equality is not about uniformity — it is about the overall balance. You are picking small examples where women outnumber men and are claiming cause and effect. Show me a genuinely powerful organisation or occupation that discriminates against men and I'll fight it with you. Looking at Kindergarten teachers is a red herring. Look at board members, police & army chiefs, presidents, government minsters, nobel prize winners etc. THat's where the power is so that is where the sexism is. Power & opportunities; not uniformity.
  - marvin 13y ago
    You are using an extremist definition of sexism. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree; when this is the foundation I could never agree with you. I think that this uncompromising attitude harms your cause rather than help it, though. I am a big proponent of equality of opportunity, fighting for it whenever I see gender discrimination in my regular circle. But this adversarial form of feminism makes otherwise compromising men dig in their heels, and you end up with a battle of the sexes rather than the possibility for change. I will never support a cause that claims that 50% of the world's population is exempt from the right to claim discrimination. Thankfully only part of the feminist movement has views that are this extreme.
    - sambeau 13y ago
      I'm amazed that you would think mine is an extremist view. If you have a major flood in your garden you don't rush to sort out a dripping tap. First you tackle the flood then you investigate the tap. Anyone shouting 'the tap, the tap!' would be quite rightfully lambasted as unhelpful. Nursing & childcare are statistically women-only due to sexism against women, not due to sexism against men. These are low-paying, low-power jobs where only the bosses tend to be male. If some women are protectionist about men joining their ranks (which, by the way, I highly doubt until I see some evidence — I have met many of both) it is probably due either due to fears of pedophilia (almost certainly unfair) or due to fears that men will be promoted over them (very real). Anti-male sexism in the work-place is a red-herring. It is a minuscule problem compared to anti-female sexism and, to my ears, carping on about it sounds as misplaced as white males going on about being discriminated by ethnic minorities.

by sambeau 13y ago

qwerty500 13y ago

"Sexism is a female only problem and will continue to be as long as men hold most of the power and are afforded most of the best opportunities." Can you name one company who wouldn't take a more competent female developer over a male developer?

sambeau 13y ago
I have worked for many. How many female developers does your company have? Mine has 0/6. My previous company, that actively sought female developers had around 15%, the company before that had 3 out of 100+, before that one out of 30. Women make up 51% of the population and, at least in the UK, are getting better school results in science & maths than men. And yet what percentage of the developer population is female? 10%? more? less? So it looks like either the companies are not taking the more competent developers or the women are less competent. Are you therefore claiming that female developers are less competent than male developers?

cliveowen 13y ago

Do you realize that preventing someone from getting a job because "has traditionally been a female-only occupation due in-part to traditional gender-specific roles around child-rearing" and that "men who choose to enter it are viewed with scepticism" is the very definition of sexism? Sexism isn't about the industry or about career advancement is about discrimination against a gender for a given category of jobs.

sambeau 13y ago
Show me proof of prevention. You are confusing cause and effect. You are concentrating on a tiny percentage of evidence in the counter direction hugely outbalanced by the weight of evidence in the main direction. Sexism is a huge problem for women and a tiny problem for men. So small, in fact, it statistically it does not exist. Look at the balance of the scales not the tiny fleck on one side. Sexism is about balance not uniformity. It is about power and opportunity. Not everything has to be equal for us to eradicate it. As long as the problem is stacked against women we should be concentrating on sexism against women.

marvin 13y ago

You had me up until "Sexism is a female only problem". This is provably false for any sane definition of sexism. Try being a male nurse or kindergarten teacher, getting an allegation of sexual abuse taken seriously, looking at the statistics of criminal charges vs. convictions by gender etc.

sambeau 13y ago
Sexism is not a problem for men as long as men hold most of the power and are afforded most of the best opportunities. Equality is not about uniformity — it is about the overall balance. You are picking small examples where women outnumber men and are claiming cause and effect. Show me a genuinely powerful organisation or occupation that discriminates against men and I'll fight it with you. Looking at Kindergarten teachers is a red herring. Look at board members, police & army chiefs, presidents, government minsters, nobel prize winners etc. THat's where the power is so that is where the sexism is. Power & opportunities; not uniformity.
- marvin 13y ago
  You are using an extremist definition of sexism. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree; when this is the foundation I could never agree with you. I think that this uncompromising attitude harms your cause rather than help it, though. I am a big proponent of equality of opportunity, fighting for it whenever I see gender discrimination in my regular circle. But this adversarial form of feminism makes otherwise compromising men dig in their heels, and you end up with a battle of the sexes rather than the possibility for change. I will never support a cause that claims that 50% of the world's population is exempt from the right to claim discrimination. Thankfully only part of the feminist movement has views that are this extreme.
  - sambeau 13y ago
    I'm amazed that you would think mine is an extremist view. If you have a major flood in your garden you don't rush to sort out a dripping tap. First you tackle the flood then you investigate the tap. Anyone shouting 'the tap, the tap!' would be quite rightfully lambasted as unhelpful. Nursing & childcare are statistically women-only due to sexism against women, not due to sexism against men. These are low-paying, low-power jobs where only the bosses tend to be male. If some women are protectionist about men joining their ranks (which, by the way, I highly doubt until I see some evidence — I have met many of both) it is probably due either due to fears of pedophilia (almost certainly unfair) or due to fears that men will be promoted over them (very real). Anti-male sexism in the work-place is a red-herring. It is a minuscule problem compared to anti-female sexism and, to my ears, carping on about it sounds as misplaced as white males going on about being discriminated by ethnic minorities.