7 ms·
You need to learn that what is considered (possibly socially) acceptable behaviour amongst your friends, is not necessarily acceptable in the workplace. If you
by lifebeyondfife 13y ago
You need to learn that what is considered (possibly socially) acceptable behaviour amongst your friends, is not necessarily acceptable in the workplace.
If you want a definition of the workplace, it includes hacker meetups, youtube videos, presentations etc. where people of all social groups come together to discuss or create code. I have a very twisted sense of humour that many would find offensive. At work though I keep that side of myself under wraps, not out of a sense of fear but of respect.
The bottom line is this: by collectively changing our behaviour to be less offensive (from the point of view of gender, sexuality, race, religion etc.) then people from those groups feel more safe and secure in that environment. If women truly felt comfortable to enter into the currently male dominated tech industry we get a bigger talent pool to choose from - the competition and skillset increases. Now re-read that sentence substituting 'women' and 'male dominated' with any minority/majority pairing and we start to see how much bigger we can make the number of available programmers.
It may seem dull to have a workplace that's so sterile and inoffensively humourless, but it's work, not a bar.
- jnardiello 13y agoAnd i do totally agree with you on this. Both presentations were pointless, stupid, superficial and idiotic. Still, the point here is not about sexism, but about (as you mentioned) idiots being on stage presenting something they had to keep for themselves or for their local meetups.
- chris_wot 13y agoIt is about sexism. Tell me that this is not sexist? https://mobile.twitter.com/HateYouCards/status/376735190434840576/photo/1 https://mobile.twitter.com/HateYouCards/status/3767351904348...
- verroq 13y agoIs it sexist to like tits?
- SideburnsOfDoom 13y agoHaving a sexuality is not sexist. Sexualising the workplace usually is, as it makes it unfriendly to others. I appreciate that porn (hard, soft or just this smut) is a business too, but is that the business that techcrunch is in?
- WayneDB 13y agoEntertainment is part of tech and tits as well as tit jokes are damn entertaining.
- SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago> tits as well as tit jokes are damn entertaining. For some only. That's the point.
- WayneDB 13y agoGuess what? Women find tit jokes funny too so don't even try and say that you know what the whole group of Women is thinking... Fuck cencorship. The freedom to offend is more important.
- SideburnsOfDoom 13y agoNowhere did I say that I "know what the whole group of Women is thinking". It's a bit ironic that you precede that with "Women find tit jokes funny" which could be interpreted as you saying that you in fact do know. But I do know for a fact that some women, in fact some people do not find them funny. Which is what I did say.
- WayneDB 13y agoSo then what's your point? Don't joke about anything that anybody could possibly get offended at?
- pstack 13y agoSexism is the assertion that one sex is inferior to the other, usually because of or alongside assertion of stereotypes of that gender. Misogyny is the hatred of women. Neither word really has anything to do with being attracted to the sexuality of the other gender. Neither word really has anything to do with simply being unkind, mean, or insensitive. Unfortunately, we often seem to throw these labels on people (labels which stick and aren't too dissimilar from calling someone a racist or homophobe) when they're not really relevant. Having a poster of a sexualized woman or buying videogames with attractive women on the poster or laughing at a joke about the other gender or saying a particular person of the other gender is an idiot are -- while unkind and inconsiderate -- not generally matters of discrimination, superiority, or "hate". Frankly, I feel we do a disservice to the value of these words in describing actual sexism and actual (but rare) misogyny by throwing them at everything under the sun that makes someone a little uncomfortable or is anything short of respectful. Of course, even suggesting that we should be more careful of our use of these words, I am now probably both of them.
- chris_wot 13y agoYou do not have a fully defined view of sexism there. One other part of sexism is sexual objectification, which reduces the person or whole gender to an instrument of sexual pleasure, without any view of the person's dignity or humanity.
- WayneDB 13y agoNobody was reduced to that though. What fun would a pair of tits floating in the air be? I'd rather stare at tits that are attached to a whole woman.
- brodo 13y agoI don't want to spend 8 hours a day in a sterile humorless environment where everyone is scared to say something wrong on the off chance that someone might get offended. Moreover the old work/free time duality is dying. People work form home and do non-work stuff at work.
- lifebeyondfife 13y agoI totally understand this (and jnardiello and pstack's points too). As a counterpoint, I also know of at least one female dev who would think nothing of discussing an app like the one above and joining in the laughs. I suppose the problem is, do we need to vet everyone for sharing the same humour and standards of acceptability as us? If we're joining the same football team or going to a comedy club and some beers, I wouldn't particularly enjoy hanging out with someone as dull/safe as I am at work. But is it ok to say to a woman, "We'd love to welcome you onboard so long as you don't mind the dick jokes constantly flying around the office."? (Whether explicitly or implicitly, I don't think it is ok). If we really want to solve the clique-problem in tech, we need to either change the boundaries of acceptable humour and behaviour. No-one wants to spend 8 hours a day in a "sterile humorless environment". I know I had the most fun coding in my early 20s in an office where 90% of us were just out of university and male. There are going to be more tradeoffs towards inclusiveness as we go forward. Even it reduces the fun sometimes, I think it's the right thing to do.
- pstack 13y agoIn short, there is nothing wrong with the comedy of, say, Chris Rock, but it would probably not be a good fit for a professional working environment. Even if outside of that working environment every single person there would be laughing along with his vulgar set. What these guys did can be both a poor choice and not wrong.
- marvin 13y agoYou've made a good utilitarian argument for why the biased gender views in tech should be abolished. I think this will convince some people. But it's worth mentioning that making other people comfortable around you is something that is worth it on its own merits. Refusing to bother with making other people comfortable unless there is a benefit, which some hacker types tend to do, is really a sociopathic personality trait.