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I'd like to stem a couple of obvious, but inevitable (for HN and some other tech communities) criticisms that are bound to appear: 1) Yes, this stuff is tastel

I'd like to stem a couple of obvious, but inevitable (for HN and some other tech communities) criticisms that are bound to appear: 1) Yes, this stuff is tasteless and offends the sensibilities of most decent adults. (Invariably, someone likes to point out that it offends everyone, and conclude therefore that it can't be misogynistic) 2) Yes, people differ in their tolerances for crudeness in their humor. First, I think most people can agree that none of this was actually even funny -- as in, these presentations did not successfully execute the elements of humor. Second, a hackathon is not the place to get up on stage and pretend to come on the audience. There's audacity -- which, when coupled with other necessary elements can make for a great presentation -- and there's poor taste. 3) Yes, some women will take particular offense to these presentations and they are justified. Allowing a couple of dumbasses to get up and laugh about staring at breasts and dropping terrible puns -- even when their presentation is self-deprecating and they hint that they know how crass they are being -- sends the message that the organizers and the audience accept the premise of the presentation: that leering at women's bodies in a completely unaware manner, is acceptable. It's not -- please let there be nobody who contests that point. (Aside: a woman in a low-cut shirt is not putting her breasts on display for public consumption. And leering is different than looking -- nobody is saying that you aren't allowed to notice the attractiveness of a woman.) Getting up and pretending to inseminate the audience is just gross, and as an act, it is at the same level as the guy in my seventh grade class who drew a full-page phallus in my yearbook. His excuse is that he was thirteen, and assumed that everyone else was as obsessed with his genitals as he was. That people are laughing about this sends another message, and I can understand if women are more sensitive to that message than men -- who were themselves thirteen y/o males at one time. I don't know if I've demonstrated why things like this create an environment where it's hard to say, seriously, that women should get into tech.

ScottBurson 13y ago
There's another one: that this kind of thing might be crude and distasteful, but it isn't specifically sexist. The sexism is in knowing that it will make most women somewhat uncomfortable, and some women very uncomfortable, and not caring.
- educating 13y ago
  > The sexism is in knowing that it will make most women somewhat uncomfortable, and some women very uncomfortable, and not caring. I'd go so far as to say that how is an app that is all about exploiting women NOT sexist? It is more than just making them uncomfortable. Some pics are taken of women that are drug addicted or white slaves or both. For most that do it on their own initiative, it is a decision they will regret later, but unlike a one night stand, it isn't just for one night. Those images stay around forever.
  - graue 13y ago
    I think you may have misread ScottBurson's post. I interpreted as, "Some people might claim it's not sexist. <new line> But it is, because..."
  - parennoob 13y ago
    How is staring at breasts supposed to 'exploit' women? You have an extremely puritanical attitude when it comes to this. I wonder what you think of nude photo models. Go back to the 17th century.
  - ScottBurson 13y ago
    Just to be clear -- all I'm saying is that the argument (that these things aren't sexist) is being made -- as you can see if you read through the rest of the discussion.
    - educating 13y ago
      Clarified my comment. Sorry- not trying to get you into trouble.
  - gojomo 13y ago
    Personally I thought the demo was meta-commentary about absurd photo-sharing apps, community standards, and the combined awkwardness/humor of "men caught looking" (and then we, the audience or hypothetical users of the app, "caught looking at men looking"). Regressive, yes, but also recursive. The chosen example photos seemed to have as their subject the male gaze, not the breasts themselves. And, unless staged, such photos don't usually capture a "stare" but a "furtive glance": it is an artifact of the photo-taking (and then sharing) process that turns a momentary glance, that the subject might have hoped noone would notice, into a permanent, ranked "stare". The audience laughter was as much or more uncomfortable-distancing as it was enjoyment/approval, and the cultural differences in gender-sensitivity-taboos between Australia and Northern California added another interesting dimension to their act. I would consider it one of the more interesting performances in the SF Fringe Festival (http://www.sffringe.org/appl/ http://www.sffringe.org/appl/), now through September 21st on stages across San Francisco, and all the more notable because it was not, technically, an SF Fringe Festival entry or venue.
WestCoastJustin 13y ago
Distilled into management of expectations. When you go to an event like this, or say a TED talk or some type of technology conference (VMworld, PyCon, etc), I assume a G/PG rating, unless told otherwise. Sure they were jokes, just told in the wrong setting. Some people like to push the boundaries, and if you give them a soap box, they will speak. This should be news to no one, but when you show PG-13, or R content to someone expecting a PG show, joke or otherwise, then eyebrows will raise. As an example, lets say you went to see Louis CK [1], is anyone going to be outraged if he did a bit about either of these things, maybe, but that's what they signed up for, both were jokes right, what is the difference, people expect and want a PG-13/R rated show when they signed up to see Louis CK. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_CK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_CK
- MetaCosm 13y ago
  Agreed. Would be nice if the people running a hackathon like this simply put a note "Keep it family friendly" (which, with a 9 year old presenting, seems reasonable). Context matters a ton, but don't assume people have a clue, spell it out. "Keep it G rated, this is a family friendly hackathon" ...
  - gojomo 13y ago
    I would like to see the opinion of someone who actually brought their young child to the event... or even, ideally, from a child in attendance. When parents bring a child to an event that's traditionally ~99% adults, I'm not sure that what they want is for the event to down-shift to be more 'family friendly'. They may be trying to show their child more of the authentic grown-up world. I think that's what my parents were after when they brought me to R-Rated movies at the age of 9. (Or perhaps, they were just too cheap to hire a babysitter.)
    - MetaCosm 13y ago
      But, your parents KNEW it was R-rated, they didn't go into an UNKNOWN and then got whatever they got... I am fine with a hackathon saying "This is X rated, for improving <pornsite>" -- that is perfect fine, it isn't about the specific expectation, it is about SETTING one. Having no guidance means that if this is acceptable is far more grey... I think it if was supposed to be G-rated, everyone would agree it was not. Clear boundaries and expectations help everyone, from a parent deciding if their children should participate to an adult deciding if they want to attend.

ScottBurson 13y ago

There's another one: that this kind of thing might be crude and distasteful, but it isn't specifically sexist. The sexism is in knowing that it will make most women somewhat uncomfortable, and some women very uncomfortable, and not caring.

educating 13y ago
> The sexism is in knowing that it will make most women somewhat uncomfortable, and some women very uncomfortable, and not caring. I'd go so far as to say that how is an app that is all about exploiting women NOT sexist? It is more than just making them uncomfortable. Some pics are taken of women that are drug addicted or white slaves or both. For most that do it on their own initiative, it is a decision they will regret later, but unlike a one night stand, it isn't just for one night. Those images stay around forever.
- graue 13y ago
  I think you may have misread ScottBurson's post. I interpreted as, "Some people might claim it's not sexist. <new line> But it is, because..."
- parennoob 13y ago
  How is staring at breasts supposed to 'exploit' women? You have an extremely puritanical attitude when it comes to this. I wonder what you think of nude photo models. Go back to the 17th century.
- ScottBurson 13y ago
  Just to be clear -- all I'm saying is that the argument (that these things aren't sexist) is being made -- as you can see if you read through the rest of the discussion.
  - educating 13y ago
    Clarified my comment. Sorry- not trying to get you into trouble.
- gojomo 13y ago
  Personally I thought the demo was meta-commentary about absurd photo-sharing apps, community standards, and the combined awkwardness/humor of "men caught looking" (and then we, the audience or hypothetical users of the app, "caught looking at men looking"). Regressive, yes, but also recursive. The chosen example photos seemed to have as their subject the male gaze, not the breasts themselves. And, unless staged, such photos don't usually capture a "stare" but a "furtive glance": it is an artifact of the photo-taking (and then sharing) process that turns a momentary glance, that the subject might have hoped noone would notice, into a permanent, ranked "stare". The audience laughter was as much or more uncomfortable-distancing as it was enjoyment/approval, and the cultural differences in gender-sensitivity-taboos between Australia and Northern California added another interesting dimension to their act. I would consider it one of the more interesting performances in the SF Fringe Festival (http://www.sffringe.org/appl/ http://www.sffringe.org/appl/), now through September 21st on stages across San Francisco, and all the more notable because it was not, technically, an SF Fringe Festival entry or venue.

WestCoastJustin 13y ago

Distilled into management of expectations. When you go to an event like this, or say a TED talk or some type of technology conference (VMworld, PyCon, etc), I assume a G/PG rating, unless told otherwise. Sure they were jokes, just told in the wrong setting. Some people like to push the boundaries, and if you give them a soap box, they will speak. This should be news to no one, but when you show PG-13, or R content to someone expecting a PG show, joke or otherwise, then eyebrows will raise. As an example, lets say you went to see Louis CK [1], is anyone going to be outraged if he did a bit about either of these things, maybe, but that's what they signed up for, both were jokes right, what is the difference, people expect and want a PG-13/R rated show when they signed up to see Louis CK. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_CK http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_CK

MetaCosm 13y ago
Agreed. Would be nice if the people running a hackathon like this simply put a note "Keep it family friendly" (which, with a 9 year old presenting, seems reasonable). Context matters a ton, but don't assume people have a clue, spell it out. "Keep it G rated, this is a family friendly hackathon" ...
- gojomo 13y ago
  I would like to see the opinion of someone who actually brought their young child to the event... or even, ideally, from a child in attendance. When parents bring a child to an event that's traditionally ~99% adults, I'm not sure that what they want is for the event to down-shift to be more 'family friendly'. They may be trying to show their child more of the authentic grown-up world. I think that's what my parents were after when they brought me to R-Rated movies at the age of 9. (Or perhaps, they were just too cheap to hire a babysitter.)
  - MetaCosm 13y ago
    But, your parents KNEW it was R-rated, they didn't go into an UNKNOWN and then got whatever they got... I am fine with a hackathon saying "This is X rated, for improving <pornsite>" -- that is perfect fine, it isn't about the specific expectation, it is about SETTING one. Having no guidance means that if this is acceptable is far more grey... I think it if was supposed to be G-rated, everyone would agree it was not. Clear boundaries and expectations help everyone, from a parent deciding if their children should participate to an adult deciding if they want to attend.