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That's funny, here I was thinking that the NSA's surveillance resources were supposed to be used to gather intelligence on foreign threats. Where do you see a

That's funny, here I was thinking that the NSA's surveillance resources were supposed to be used to gather intelligence on foreign threats. Where do you see a threat from Brazil's oil enterprise? Oh, wait, I forgot that the NSA's resources are, in practice, also used to conduct industrial espionage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Controversy

res0nat0r 13y ago
>here I was thinking that the NSA's surveillance resources were supposed to be used to gather intelligence on foreign threats. Not necessarily. From their mission statement: The National Security Agency/Central Security Service (NSA/CSS) leads the U.S. Government in cryptology that encompasses both Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) and Information Assurance (IA) products and services, and enables Computer Network Operations (CNO) in order to gain a decision advantage for the Nation and our allies under all circumstances. http://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml http://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml
anigbrowl 13y ago
here I was thinking that the NSA's surveillance resources were supposed to be used to gather intelligence on foreign threats I'm noticing a pattern of you being outraged about discovering your own misconceptions to be ill-founded. The NSA just gathers foreign intelligence. Military and terroristic threats are the most important source of foreign intelligence, but we have a vested interest in knowing What's Going On. As does everyone else, of course - it's a two way street.
- betterunix 13y ago
  You missed the sarcasm ;) I know full well that the NSA does more than gather intelligence on foreign threats. The link in my post is about the allegations of industrial espionage that surfaced in the 90s. This is not just about the US wanting to know what's going on. This is about the US engaging in the sort of behavior that we have rebuked China over -- state-sponsored industrial espionage. It is an abuse of power, regardless of what "everyone else" is doing. As for my own misconceptions, I assume you are referring to the notion that I and many others had that the NSA would not go as far as to actively sabotage civilian cryptography. I was not alone in believing that. It was common to dismiss such allegations as far-out conspiracy theories until the day the story broke. You can look at the archives of sci.crypt and the cryptography mailing list if you do not believe me. As I said before, nobody expected the NSA to share its cryptanalysis techniques. Nobody expected the NSA to alert us to weaknesses in publicly designed ciphers or cryptosystems. It was widely assumed that the NSA would watch us fumble about and try to find exploitable weaknesses in our systems, not that they would be part of a vast conspiracy to introduce such weaknesses. Plenty of people thought that the NSA was trying to balance its signals intelligence mission with its duty to protect our own communication from foreign interception. There is nothing wrong with being outraged to discover that there is no real attempt to strike such a balance and that the crypto wars are not over by any stretch.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    > This is not just about the US wanting to know what's going on. This is about the US engaging in the sort of behavior that we have rebuked China over -- state-sponsored industrial espionage. If the NSA were only focused on industrial espionage with these programs then I don't see why they felt the need to target Google (a U.S. corporation in the first place). Not to put too fine a point on it, but oil is certainly a strategic resource and even if the U.S. never had a single plan to do anything with Brazil's oil, there are both military and national-interest reasons for knowing what Brazil knows about their own oil reserves, refinery capabilities, etc. Likewise there are embargo-related reasons to know if Brazil has secret agreements to export oil to nations embargoed by the UN. And the worst part about it all is that whether NSA is around or not, the U.S. does live in a cloak-and-dagger world, just like every other nation does. They can either somehow convince other nations to go about things "fairly" as well (possible with the EU and Brazil perhaps, not so much with Russia and China), or they can immerse themselves in that game as well. Certainly the U.S. is familiar with the problems of industrial espionage and secret economic agreements (some would say "bribes"), as both have been deployed against the U.S. (yes, even by friends, even by allies).
    - jeltz 13y ago
      > If the NSA were only focused on industrial espionage with these programs then I don't see why they felt the need to target Google (a U.S. corporation in the first place). Many foreign companies use Google.

res0nat0r 13y ago

>here I was thinking that the NSA's surveillance resources were supposed to be used to gather intelligence on foreign threats. Not necessarily. From their mission statement: The National Security Agency/Central Security Service (NSA/CSS) leads the U.S. Government in cryptology that encompasses both Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) and Information Assurance (IA) products and services, and enables Computer Network Operations (CNO) in order to gain a decision advantage for the Nation and our allies under all circumstances. http://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml http://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml

anigbrowl 13y ago

here I was thinking that the NSA's surveillance resources were supposed to be used to gather intelligence on foreign threats I'm noticing a pattern of you being outraged about discovering your own misconceptions to be ill-founded. The NSA just gathers foreign intelligence. Military and terroristic threats are the most important source of foreign intelligence, but we have a vested interest in knowing What's Going On. As does everyone else, of course - it's a two way street.

betterunix 13y ago
You missed the sarcasm ;) I know full well that the NSA does more than gather intelligence on foreign threats. The link in my post is about the allegations of industrial espionage that surfaced in the 90s. This is not just about the US wanting to know what's going on. This is about the US engaging in the sort of behavior that we have rebuked China over -- state-sponsored industrial espionage. It is an abuse of power, regardless of what "everyone else" is doing. As for my own misconceptions, I assume you are referring to the notion that I and many others had that the NSA would not go as far as to actively sabotage civilian cryptography. I was not alone in believing that. It was common to dismiss such allegations as far-out conspiracy theories until the day the story broke. You can look at the archives of sci.crypt and the cryptography mailing list if you do not believe me. As I said before, nobody expected the NSA to share its cryptanalysis techniques. Nobody expected the NSA to alert us to weaknesses in publicly designed ciphers or cryptosystems. It was widely assumed that the NSA would watch us fumble about and try to find exploitable weaknesses in our systems, not that they would be part of a vast conspiracy to introduce such weaknesses. Plenty of people thought that the NSA was trying to balance its signals intelligence mission with its duty to protect our own communication from foreign interception. There is nothing wrong with being outraged to discover that there is no real attempt to strike such a balance and that the crypto wars are not over by any stretch.
- mpyne 13y ago
  > This is not just about the US wanting to know what's going on. This is about the US engaging in the sort of behavior that we have rebuked China over -- state-sponsored industrial espionage. If the NSA were only focused on industrial espionage with these programs then I don't see why they felt the need to target Google (a U.S. corporation in the first place). Not to put too fine a point on it, but oil is certainly a strategic resource and even if the U.S. never had a single plan to do anything with Brazil's oil, there are both military and national-interest reasons for knowing what Brazil knows about their own oil reserves, refinery capabilities, etc. Likewise there are embargo-related reasons to know if Brazil has secret agreements to export oil to nations embargoed by the UN. And the worst part about it all is that whether NSA is around or not, the U.S. does live in a cloak-and-dagger world, just like every other nation does. They can either somehow convince other nations to go about things "fairly" as well (possible with the EU and Brazil perhaps, not so much with Russia and China), or they can immerse themselves in that game as well. Certainly the U.S. is familiar with the problems of industrial espionage and secret economic agreements (some would say "bribes"), as both have been deployed against the U.S. (yes, even by friends, even by allies).
  - jeltz 13y ago
    > If the NSA were only focused on industrial espionage with these programs then I don't see why they felt the need to target Google (a U.S. corporation in the first place). Many foreign companies use Google.