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Queue up the Ayn Rand acolytes in 3...2...1 It's not a coincidence that this is happening to mostly elderly people who otherwise own their properties in the cl

Queue up the Ayn Rand acolytes in 3...2...1 It's not a coincidence that this is happening to mostly elderly people who otherwise own their properties in the clear, people who are often burdened with serious health problems. There is a simple fix. Require the liens to be paid off when there is a change of ownership. The city knows what it is owed, and that it will get the money eventually. If the city needs the money today, it ought to be able to borrow the funds (not all that different that accounts receivable factoring). Throwing people out of their homes over small amounts is inhumane.

dantheman 13y ago
Why would an Ayn Rand acolyte support the state taking the property of private individuals?
- brianmcconnell 13y ago
  I was referring to the generally sociopathic attitude they tend to adopt toward The Poor. BTW, this is a privatized operation wherein predatory debt collectors buy the liens, foreclose the property, and then flip it at a huge profit. Just another example of government acting as stenographer for the financial industry.
  - drcode 13y ago
    > Just another example of government acting as stenographer for the financial industry. Did you actually just say a sentence with the phrase "government acting" in it as an example of something Ayn Rand would be in favor of? HAHAHAHA.... (I'm not in the Ayn Rand camp, but I think you're missing the basic concept of what she was about.)
    - kaonashi 13y ago
      It's privatization of tax collection; a Randian/Thatcherite dream.
      - mistermann 13y ago
        Collection of taxes being private, and the fairness of the rules are two entirely different things. "Randian/Thatcherite dream"...as if they want people to lose their houses. You are very misinformed on Objectivist principles.
        kaonashi 13y ago
        The principles emphasize process over outcome. So it's not that they want people to lose their homes, but if things happen the 'right' way and that's the outcome, so be it.
        mistermann 13y ago
        Actually, they don't emphasize process, they emphasize who does it, and what is done. Objectivism prefers the government not to handle most anything, but would never advocate people losing their property over a minor tax bill - that is theft, a very big no-no in Objectivism.
        kaonashi 13y ago
        > they emphasize who does it, and what is done Yea, that's what process usually entails. I don't see outcome in that list.
        mistermann 13y ago
        > I don't see outcome in that list. Well, property is sacred in Objectivism and "stealing" is a deadly sin. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether taking someone's home over a tiny unpaid tax bill would be considered stealing. (Hint: it is.)
        kaonashi 13y ago
        …and thus the internal contradictions inherent in Objectivism are laid bare.
  - ok_craig 13y ago
    You really have no idea what you're talking about.
    - brianmcconnell 13y ago
      Fair enough. Atlas Shrugged was such an awful book I couldn't make it past the first few pages. However, I have enough experience with Rand's followers and their "got mine, screw you" attitude to see how a shitty book can get turned into a political movement. See also Mein Kampf.
      - seehafer 13y ago
        And the Redditization of HN is now complete. Also, Godwin's law alert!
        sliverstorm 13y ago
        Oh, that already happened, years ago.
  - seehafer 13y ago
    > I was referring to the generally sociopathic attitude they tend to adopt toward The Poor. Do you really expect anyone to engage with you when you call a well-known author a sociopath without justification? Might as well call her a child rapist while you're at it.
  - UK-AL 13y ago
    Ayn Rand was poor.
tvanantwerp 13y ago
I can't really see Ayn Rand supporting the seizure of property over unpaid taxes. I'm not an Ayn Rand fan, but it's pretty easy to figure out what she does or doesn't believe in from her writings. And taxes are definitely in the "I don't care for that" category.
- wwweston 13y ago
  I am a (limited) Rand fan -- I think she inadvertently explored some interesting ideas, particularly about the limits and problems of wealth/power in The Fountainhead, lost on most of her acolytes though they seem to be -- and my suspicion is that Rand would be pretty much fine with this outcome if we could just get government actors out of the equation and have private parties taking homes from people. For an example, consider an HOA taking a home from someone over unpaid fees. (Incidentally, if one were looking for a crystal ball into what private/libertarian governance would actually start out looking like in the first world, I'd guess that the problems of HOAs would probably give a pretty good idea.)
  - mistermann 13y ago
    > my suspicion is that Rand would be pretty much fine with this outcome if we could just get government actors out of the equation and have private parties taking homes from people. Absolute nonsense....I can't think of a single Rand writing that would support this notion in the slightest. One of her primary principles was that the desire for the unearned was a "sin" (or whatever equivalent word she used). Taking someone's home over a small tax bill is definitely unearned.
    - wwweston 13y ago
      "Earned" is a slippery concept that can take some funny turns depending on who's using it. If someone who's halfway through paying their mortgage stops making payment, has the bank earned the equity the borrower has put in? You might argue they haven't, but this isn't absurd. If nothing else, advocates for the lender -- and, in general, libertarian voluntarists -- would argue that if both parties have agreed on the conditions, execution of them is justly earned. And if you want Rand cite for that, read the Roark/Rand courtroom soliloquy where it's explained why it's OK for him to blow up a building (sure, other people may have put in sweat and equity, but that's nothing compared to his contract). Well, why not the same thing for an HOA? Nobody held a gun to your head to move into a property that's part of a private collective. If Roark can uphold his aesthetic conditions, surely an HOA can uphold whichever please them, and ask for their fees, and blow you out of your building if you don't comply. Now, if you think that there's a flaw here -- perhaps that "as agreed" is not necessarily the same thing as "earned" -- I might agree with you. Perhaps Rand even says something to that effect elsewhere. But at the same time, the entire climax of her second most famous book turns on a different principle. (Also -- I have my doubts that anybody has any true claim to have earned most of what they have. We all have a heck of a free ride as far as life and resources go.)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
theorique 13y ago
Say what you like about Ayn Rand, but she was hardly a fan of out-of-control government/private collusion to seize individuals property in a manner completely out of proportion to the size of their debt.
- rdtsc 13y ago
  That was the flaw in her reasoning that big business and govt can and will be somehow separate entities. They never are. They are effectively the same entity. Look at chiefs and heads of regulatory agencies, they are often ex or future CEO of industries those agencies are supposed to police. Look at many military industrial contractors they often hire ex-generals and so on. And all this in the land of "law and order". Imagine in other countries with less "law and order".
  - theorique 13y ago
    For sure. Good point about the contractors hiring generals. There are lots of different revolving doors in different industries. If you work at a major investment bank, why would you speak out against government regulation of your industry when you might need a bailout some year in the future? If you work at a government regulator (e.g. the SEC), why would you regulate the industry too hard when they are going to be your biggest source of consulting fees after you leave your government employment? For example, Bernie Madoff's brother was a director of SIFMA (Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association) for two years.
xsmasher 13y ago
It's happening to elderly / vulnerable because anyone else, faced with losing their house over a $50 tax bill, would pay the tax bill. This isn't something that happens in a single day, or in the middle of the night. I'm only familiar with the tax sale rules in one Connecticut town, but the include a provision for the (delinquent) taxpayer to pay their bill in full within 30 days of the auction to cancel the sale / lien.

dantheman 13y ago

Why would an Ayn Rand acolyte support the state taking the property of private individuals?

brianmcconnell 13y ago
I was referring to the generally sociopathic attitude they tend to adopt toward The Poor. BTW, this is a privatized operation wherein predatory debt collectors buy the liens, foreclose the property, and then flip it at a huge profit. Just another example of government acting as stenographer for the financial industry.
- drcode 13y ago
  > Just another example of government acting as stenographer for the financial industry. Did you actually just say a sentence with the phrase "government acting" in it as an example of something Ayn Rand would be in favor of? HAHAHAHA.... (I'm not in the Ayn Rand camp, but I think you're missing the basic concept of what she was about.)
  - kaonashi 13y ago
    It's privatization of tax collection; a Randian/Thatcherite dream.
    - mistermann 13y ago
      Collection of taxes being private, and the fairness of the rules are two entirely different things. "Randian/Thatcherite dream"...as if they want people to lose their houses. You are very misinformed on Objectivist principles.
      - kaonashi 13y ago
        The principles emphasize process over outcome. So it's not that they want people to lose their homes, but if things happen the 'right' way and that's the outcome, so be it.
        mistermann 13y ago
        Actually, they don't emphasize process, they emphasize who does it, and what is done. Objectivism prefers the government not to handle most anything, but would never advocate people losing their property over a minor tax bill - that is theft, a very big no-no in Objectivism.
        kaonashi 13y ago
        > they emphasize who does it, and what is done Yea, that's what process usually entails. I don't see outcome in that list.
        mistermann 13y ago
        > I don't see outcome in that list. Well, property is sacred in Objectivism and "stealing" is a deadly sin. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether taking someone's home over a tiny unpaid tax bill would be considered stealing. (Hint: it is.)
        kaonashi 13y ago
        …and thus the internal contradictions inherent in Objectivism are laid bare.
- ok_craig 13y ago
  You really have no idea what you're talking about.
  - brianmcconnell 13y ago
    Fair enough. Atlas Shrugged was such an awful book I couldn't make it past the first few pages. However, I have enough experience with Rand's followers and their "got mine, screw you" attitude to see how a shitty book can get turned into a political movement. See also Mein Kampf.
    - seehafer 13y ago
      And the Redditization of HN is now complete. Also, Godwin's law alert!
      - sliverstorm 13y ago
        Oh, that already happened, years ago.
- seehafer 13y ago
  > I was referring to the generally sociopathic attitude they tend to adopt toward The Poor. Do you really expect anyone to engage with you when you call a well-known author a sociopath without justification? Might as well call her a child rapist while you're at it.
- UK-AL 13y ago
  Ayn Rand was poor.

tvanantwerp 13y ago

I can't really see Ayn Rand supporting the seizure of property over unpaid taxes. I'm not an Ayn Rand fan, but it's pretty easy to figure out what she does or doesn't believe in from her writings. And taxes are definitely in the "I don't care for that" category.

wwweston 13y ago
I am a (limited) Rand fan -- I think she inadvertently explored some interesting ideas, particularly about the limits and problems of wealth/power in The Fountainhead, lost on most of her acolytes though they seem to be -- and my suspicion is that Rand would be pretty much fine with this outcome if we could just get government actors out of the equation and have private parties taking homes from people. For an example, consider an HOA taking a home from someone over unpaid fees. (Incidentally, if one were looking for a crystal ball into what private/libertarian governance would actually start out looking like in the first world, I'd guess that the problems of HOAs would probably give a pretty good idea.)
- mistermann 13y ago
  > my suspicion is that Rand would be pretty much fine with this outcome if we could just get government actors out of the equation and have private parties taking homes from people. Absolute nonsense....I can't think of a single Rand writing that would support this notion in the slightest. One of her primary principles was that the desire for the unearned was a "sin" (or whatever equivalent word she used). Taking someone's home over a small tax bill is definitely unearned.
  - wwweston 13y ago
    "Earned" is a slippery concept that can take some funny turns depending on who's using it. If someone who's halfway through paying their mortgage stops making payment, has the bank earned the equity the borrower has put in? You might argue they haven't, but this isn't absurd. If nothing else, advocates for the lender -- and, in general, libertarian voluntarists -- would argue that if both parties have agreed on the conditions, execution of them is justly earned. And if you want Rand cite for that, read the Roark/Rand courtroom soliloquy where it's explained why it's OK for him to blow up a building (sure, other people may have put in sweat and equity, but that's nothing compared to his contract). Well, why not the same thing for an HOA? Nobody held a gun to your head to move into a property that's part of a private collective. If Roark can uphold his aesthetic conditions, surely an HOA can uphold whichever please them, and ask for their fees, and blow you out of your building if you don't comply. Now, if you think that there's a flaw here -- perhaps that "as agreed" is not necessarily the same thing as "earned" -- I might agree with you. Perhaps Rand even says something to that effect elsewhere. But at the same time, the entire climax of her second most famous book turns on a different principle. (Also -- I have my doubts that anybody has any true claim to have earned most of what they have. We all have a heck of a free ride as far as life and resources go.)

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

theorique 13y ago

Say what you like about Ayn Rand, but she was hardly a fan of out-of-control government/private collusion to seize individuals property in a manner completely out of proportion to the size of their debt.

rdtsc 13y ago
That was the flaw in her reasoning that big business and govt can and will be somehow separate entities. They never are. They are effectively the same entity. Look at chiefs and heads of regulatory agencies, they are often ex or future CEO of industries those agencies are supposed to police. Look at many military industrial contractors they often hire ex-generals and so on. And all this in the land of "law and order". Imagine in other countries with less "law and order".
- theorique 13y ago
  For sure. Good point about the contractors hiring generals. There are lots of different revolving doors in different industries. If you work at a major investment bank, why would you speak out against government regulation of your industry when you might need a bailout some year in the future? If you work at a government regulator (e.g. the SEC), why would you regulate the industry too hard when they are going to be your biggest source of consulting fees after you leave your government employment? For example, Bernie Madoff's brother was a director of SIFMA (Securities Industry and Financial Markets Association) for two years.

xsmasher 13y ago

It's happening to elderly / vulnerable because anyone else, faced with losing their house over a $50 tax bill, would pay the tax bill. This isn't something that happens in a single day, or in the middle of the night. I'm only familiar with the tax sale rules in one Connecticut town, but the include a provision for the (delinquent) taxpayer to pay their bill in full within 30 days of the auction to cancel the sale / lien.