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> I happen to disagree that it is the only logically consistent position When I say it's a logically consistent position, what I mean to imply by that is for p
by etherael 13y ago
> I happen to disagree that it is the only logically consistent position
When I say it's a logically consistent position, what I mean to imply by that is for people who think that government is an abomination, it is logically consistent for them to hope for the dismantling thereof. You, who most decidedly do not think that government is an abomination, as a lawyer, are logically consistent in thinking that it should not be dismantled.
> Much like a corporation is the legal stand-in for the will of the collective shareholders, a government is the societal stand-in for the will of the people at large.
Except that it most clearly is not.
> A society that tries to maintain no government, or very limited government, is at an unstable point. In the best case it will collapse from internal conflict but be left alone from there (e.g. Somalia, tribal areas of Afghanistan/Pakistan). In the normal case the society will simply be eventually overrun by those who choose to organize (e.g. USA vs. the Native Americans, Hitler vs. the appeasers), but a government will spring up again one way or another.
That's a normalcy bias, there have been many points throughout history with no centralised productivity extracting parasitic force initiating agency. In fact, the variant we have now with extremely high direct taxation on the incomes of almost all productive activity within a society is the historical anathema. Not only that, but this fails to take into account the methods of control the state actually uses to exercise control on its population, and that currency control was recently removed from their hands.
Agorism becomes a very real threat under these circumstances
As a nash equilibrium, an involuntary centralised productivity extracting parasitic force initiating agency is not at all stable. It stands to reason that it will only be able to maintain control by either force or fraud. Right now they're going with fraud, from the amount of discontent I see with the political state of the world I don't know how much longer it will last until they devolve to force.
- mpyne 13y agoI'm not actually a lawyer, though I suppose I do sometimes play one on HN. Regarding your noted normalcy bias, I would suggest you're forgetting the very many more points through recorded history with a centralized purveyor of force and taxation. In that light, pointing out isolated counterexamples isn't very suggestive of some realistic future possibility for most or all of mankind, just as pointing out that Athens once had a direct democracy isn't very useful as a way to organize the governance of a nation. Of course, the agorism you point out doesn't even have voting. I can only assume the idea is for some type of useful emergent behavior to come about, but that only talks about how the society would function internally, and it doesn't even really provide details about how that would work in all the important corner cases. Is there some type of existing emergent societal system that you can point out which works in practice and need only be scaled up? > As a nash equilibrium, an involuntary centralised productivity extracting parasitic force initiating agency is not at all stable. It stands to reason that it will only be able to maintain control by either force or fraud. If by 'stable' you mean 'impossible to overturn' then I would argue that no political system meets this. If you mean 'can continue perpetually' then it is certainly a stable equilibrium, though it does unashamedly require force. Fraud alone can't keep it going in any event, otherwise police wouldn't be needed.
- etherael 13y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machinery_of_Freedom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machinery_of_Freedom Describes a system based purely around free market mechanisms. Free markets are emergent, and they certainly work very well, scaling them up to consume all the functions currently performed by government in the methods described by this book is in my opinion the best method for abolishing the state I've heard of so far. There are many other ideas however, and I'm open to any of them to the extent that they employ persuasion / markets rather than force. > Fraud alone can't keep it going in any event, otherwise police wouldn't be needed. Yes, when the lies stop being believable, then you need the jackboots to come in and crack skulls and assert the true facts of the way those in power see things. This is part of my problem with the system in question.
- etherael 13y agoAre you really not a lawyer? As we've sparred fairly frequently over time I kinda wanted to get a feel for where you were coming from so I read through all your comment history for a while (though this was a while ago). I just double checked that and saw this; rayiner 671 days ago | link As someone who left software engineering for law, I have to say that partnership is a great motivator. and this; rayiner 274 days ago | link | parent | flag So I'm a lawyer and you should take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I think you've misread the market. and this; rayiner 303 days ago | link So my grandfather on my mom's side was a doctor and a lawyer. My mom's siblings include a couple of doctors, a military officer, a business executive, etc. My mom was herself a journalist, and of her sons I'm a lawyer and my brother is a banker. This is not a coincidence. Privilege is passed down from generation to generation, not just in money, but in social status, connections, values, culture, insight, motivation, outlook, etc. amongst a great many other descriptions of legal minutiae that I can see how I may have gotten that impression. But it leads me to wonder what your story actually is? Feel free to ignore this request if you think it's breaching privacy.
- etherael 13y ago... Aaaand I just realised I was talking to mpyne, not rayiner. Sorry, you two share positions on so much I get you mixed up.