4 ms·

20-ish cases is not what I would call a big outbreak. Some of those affected in Texas had received vaccinations, but for whatever reason[1], weren't protected.

20-ish cases is not what I would call a big outbreak. Some of those affected in Texas had received vaccinations, but for whatever reason[1], weren't protected. [1] I guess they had either neglected to get a booster, were not scheduled to receive the full series of shots, or the vaccine's efficacy isn't what it is claimed to be. >My anecdotal experience among anti-vaccination people I've known is that they're only weakly correlated with religion or politics Here is another anec-data point for you. I'm not anti-vaccine, but I am more skeptical / cautious than most (we selectively decline / delay vaccinations). I am also Atheist. My impression is that the skepticism is rooted more in lack of trust in authorities, than religion.

venomsnake 13y ago
Well ... it is simple math. If the vaccine is effective 95% (pretty good on its own) and you come in contact with 10 sick people you have a good 40% chance to catch it. That is the whole things with vaccines - the herd immunity is as important in protection as the vaccine itself. It is virtuous positive feedback loop.
- bobbydavid 13y ago
  This is the part most people don't get, on either side. You're vaccinated? Not a magic bullet, you rely on others around you. Not vaccinated? You're putting others in danger, not just yourself. A vaccine doesn't have to get anywhere near 100% protection to be effective - it just has to drop the viral coefficient below 1.
cloverich 13y ago
> we selectively decline / delay vaccinations Interested to hear your justification for declining / delaying vaccine's, but not considering yourself anti-vaccine.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >Interested to hear your justification for declining / delaying vaccine I'm interested to hear why a five minute old infant is at risk of contracting Hep-B. Our kids will get Hep-B before they start school. Even if one of our kids did contract Hep-B, it is pretty unlikely that they will be able to give it to your children. Rota-virus vaccine was suspended by the FDA temporarily,[1] We opted to decline this one even after the suspension was lifted considering seriousness of intussusception[2][3] compared the very low incidence of death or serious injury by rota-virus infection in the US. Even though the suspension wasn't related to the earlier intussusception problem, I considered the incident sign of poor QC and/or a lack of respect for the FDA by the manufacturer. We would probably reconsider if we had plans for international travel with the children, even though our oldest has probably been exposed/infected. (a fun story!) (It sure would be nice if antibody testing were cheap and widely available). Seasonal Influenza - Declined based on personal negative experience and systematic reviews of vaccine efficacy[4][5]. Every single seasonal influenza vaccine I have taken has resulted in a miserable two-week flu-like state. I have never had a case of the flu as that was as unpleasant as my reaction to the vaccine. I understand most people are not affected so negatively by the vaccine. After reading the Cochrane reviews on the subject, I am inclined to believe that the seasonal Influenza vaccine is an unnecessary and rarely useful product. Not that I need to worry about it yet, but Cervarix and especially Gardasil seem to have low efficacy WRT to the (possible) risks of the vaccine, especially considering the prognosis for those that contract cervical cancer (women rarely die of cervical cancer). I also find Merck's relationship over the matter with my state's idiot Governor particularly aggravating. So, basically, if the risk of contracting and or having the illness is low, and if it doesn't needlessly endanger others (like MMR refusal for school-aged children) then I am going to take a good hard look at whether we really need the vaccine. >not considering yourself anti-vaccine. Anti-vaccine means you don't allow yourself or your children to be vaccinated. Our children do receive most vaccines at the scheduled time. We have opted to delay or forgo a few vaccines. Lumping people into two opposing factions has had a very negative effect on the debate, as it tends to do in a debate on any subject. [1] http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/ucm212140.htm http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedP... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22293889 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22293889 [3] http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/QuestionsaboutVaccines/ucm100895.htm http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/Questions... [4] 'Flu vaccine doesn't help elderly' http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20166072 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20166072 [5] Please read the author's conclusions for this one. 'Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.' http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614424 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614424
warfangle 13y ago
Vaccines don't work 100% of the time. That's why you shoot for herd immunity. Vaccines aren't to keep individuals from getting sick; they're to prevent outbreaks and pandemics. That they prevent most people who receive them from getting sick is an added benefit.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >That they prevent most people who receive them from getting sick is an added benefit. You'll have a lot better luck selling vaccines to people if they provide a direct benefit.
  - warfangle 13y ago
    I'm not a salesman.
pkennedy 13y ago
I guess I need to dig deeper with that case, but 20 symptomatic cases is probably linked to many others exposed and needing monitoring and prophylactic care[1]. So maybe not big, but not tiny either. [1] for example, this case that happened in my old town had 3 symptomatic, but 175 or so others needing treatment: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5341a3.htm http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5341a3.htm And I totally get the skepticism of authorities thing. I only developed what trust in medical authorities I have after doing prepress work on a lot of medical textbooks and getting more familiar with the literature. Frankly most of us don't have a chance of keeping up with the state of the field when even professionals can barely keep up.

venomsnake 13y ago

Well ... it is simple math. If the vaccine is effective 95% (pretty good on its own) and you come in contact with 10 sick people you have a good 40% chance to catch it. That is the whole things with vaccines - the herd immunity is as important in protection as the vaccine itself. It is virtuous positive feedback loop.

bobbydavid 13y ago
This is the part most people don't get, on either side. You're vaccinated? Not a magic bullet, you rely on others around you. Not vaccinated? You're putting others in danger, not just yourself. A vaccine doesn't have to get anywhere near 100% protection to be effective - it just has to drop the viral coefficient below 1.

cloverich 13y ago

> we selectively decline / delay vaccinations Interested to hear your justification for declining / delaying vaccine's, but not considering yourself anti-vaccine.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>Interested to hear your justification for declining / delaying vaccine I'm interested to hear why a five minute old infant is at risk of contracting Hep-B. Our kids will get Hep-B before they start school. Even if one of our kids did contract Hep-B, it is pretty unlikely that they will be able to give it to your children. Rota-virus vaccine was suspended by the FDA temporarily,[1] We opted to decline this one even after the suspension was lifted considering seriousness of intussusception[2][3] compared the very low incidence of death or serious injury by rota-virus infection in the US. Even though the suspension wasn't related to the earlier intussusception problem, I considered the incident sign of poor QC and/or a lack of respect for the FDA by the manufacturer. We would probably reconsider if we had plans for international travel with the children, even though our oldest has probably been exposed/infected. (a fun story!) (It sure would be nice if antibody testing were cheap and widely available). Seasonal Influenza - Declined based on personal negative experience and systematic reviews of vaccine efficacy[4][5]. Every single seasonal influenza vaccine I have taken has resulted in a miserable two-week flu-like state. I have never had a case of the flu as that was as unpleasant as my reaction to the vaccine. I understand most people are not affected so negatively by the vaccine. After reading the Cochrane reviews on the subject, I am inclined to believe that the seasonal Influenza vaccine is an unnecessary and rarely useful product. Not that I need to worry about it yet, but Cervarix and especially Gardasil seem to have low efficacy WRT to the (possible) risks of the vaccine, especially considering the prognosis for those that contract cervical cancer (women rarely die of cervical cancer). I also find Merck's relationship over the matter with my state's idiot Governor particularly aggravating. So, basically, if the risk of contracting and or having the illness is low, and if it doesn't needlessly endanger others (like MMR refusal for school-aged children) then I am going to take a good hard look at whether we really need the vaccine. >not considering yourself anti-vaccine. Anti-vaccine means you don't allow yourself or your children to be vaccinated. Our children do receive most vaccines at the scheduled time. We have opted to delay or forgo a few vaccines. Lumping people into two opposing factions has had a very negative effect on the debate, as it tends to do in a debate on any subject. [1] http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/ucm212140.htm http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedP... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22293889 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22293889 [3] http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/QuestionsaboutVaccines/ucm100895.htm http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/Questions... [4] 'Flu vaccine doesn't help elderly' http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20166072 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20166072 [5] Please read the author's conclusions for this one. 'Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults.' http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614424 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614424

warfangle 13y ago

Vaccines don't work 100% of the time. That's why you shoot for herd immunity. Vaccines aren't to keep individuals from getting sick; they're to prevent outbreaks and pandemics. That they prevent most people who receive them from getting sick is an added benefit.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>That they prevent most people who receive them from getting sick is an added benefit. You'll have a lot better luck selling vaccines to people if they provide a direct benefit.
- warfangle 13y ago
  I'm not a salesman.

pkennedy 13y ago

I guess I need to dig deeper with that case, but 20 symptomatic cases is probably linked to many others exposed and needing monitoring and prophylactic care[1]. So maybe not big, but not tiny either. [1] for example, this case that happened in my old town had 3 symptomatic, but 175 or so others needing treatment: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5341a3.htm http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5341a3.htm And I totally get the skepticism of authorities thing. I only developed what trust in medical authorities I have after doing prepress work on a lot of medical textbooks and getting more familiar with the literature. Frankly most of us don't have a chance of keeping up with the state of the field when even professionals can barely keep up.