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> I have also never seen a case of autism. Not sure where you live. There are two kids with autism on my block. Both young boys. Autism is a common disease wh

> I have also never seen a case of autism. Not sure where you live. There are two kids with autism on my block. Both young boys. Autism is a common disease where I live in the midwest. We have 3 large organizations that only work with Autistic kids. My wife and I have 3 kids and vaccinate them selectively on our own schedule. We vaccinate our kids for the same things that we received as children, nothing more and nothing less. > The stuff we vaccinate against is not harmless. Our medical system wants to vaccinate for everything now, chicken pox etc.

minikites 13y ago
Why not vaccinate for chickenpox? Helps reduce chance of scarring and reduces the chance for shingles. When I was a kid I gave chicken pox to my mom who got super sick. It would have been nice to have a vaccine back then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine I'm surprised at the number of comments on a tech site showing fear of technology.
- brown9-2 13y ago
  As an adult who had shingles, allow me to add that you definitely do not want shingles and it is not as benign as most of us remember childhood chicken pox as.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  It isn't so much a fear of technology, as a distrust of the authorities. Like the author said, some of it has a rational basis, and some does not. I know vaccines usually work, and are mostly safe. I remain very skeptical though for several reasons including: The difficulty of proving vaccine injury, and inadequate remedies. The business incentives caused by the NVCIA[1] (no fault vaccine court). Personal experience with doctors, pediatricians, and other medical professionals. The lack of credible statistics for vaccine adverse reactions. It is nearly impossible to find authorities on the subject who can calmly and rationally explain the risks and benefits, and help you evaluate the risk properly. It is also nearly impossible to find objective impartial information from any source. The "debate" on the subject is very polarized. Skepticism is often treated as heresy or idiocy. We still vaccinate our children, but not for everything[2], and not always on schedule. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Childhood_Vaccine_Injury_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Childhood_Vaccine_Inj... [2] We delayed the HEP-B at birth and opted not to take the rotavirus vaccine.
  - venomsnake 13y ago
    HEP-B is one of the vaccines that a person can take anytime. (It is actually combined A+B 3 shot IIRC). HEP-B is transmitted by bodily fluid exchange so the real danger kicks during puberty. But it is extremely virulent sadly.
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      >HEP-B is transmitted by bodily fluid exchange so the real danger kicks during puberty. Right, we determined the risk of contracting Hep-B was very low for infants. The other risk factors are blood transfusions, medical malpractice. They will get it before they start school. There is also very low chance for an infected infant/toddler to spread Hep-B so, no ethical worries there, unlike MMR.
lake99 13y ago
If your kids happen get chickenpox naturally in their childhood, they'll likely be safe. However, if they get when they grow up, it could easily be fatal. I don't know why there is an increase of autism in your area, or even if there really is an increase. But vaccines are a red herring.
Steuard 13y ago
I had a friend in college who used to talk about how she almost died as a kid due to complications of chicken pox. She was very vocally thrilled when the vaccine was announced.
venomsnake 13y ago
I meant that there weren't kids in my surrounding (consisting of a couple of thousand kids) with the kind of mental problems(symptoms) while growing up and having very strict immunization schedule. Of course in the 80s in Eastern Europe some things were just considered being a kid that I suppose will give you today some diagnosis. Was chicken pox or mumps the one that boils your testicles if you get is as an adult?
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  Mumps.
functional_test 13y ago
Honestly, how many times does the link between vaccines and autism have to be disproven before people get it? On the other hand, there is a direct link between not being vaccinated and getting sick. Probably why they want to vaccinate against everything. Even chicken pox can cause more severe disease like shingles [1]. You wouldn't want your kids riding in a car with only the safety features that existed when you were a child. Why would you do the same for their health? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpes_zoster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpes_zoster
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  >Honestly, how many times does the link between vaccines and autism have to be disproven before people get it? Honestly, there are many possible adverse reactions, and honestly, I want to see lots of good data. I know it may be costly, I don't care. I want to see the little bumps and dips in the plots of efficacy and safety for various vaccines. I want continuous quality control. I want it published publicly where the incidences of vaccine related injury were investigated, a cause found, and a problem corrected. I don't question the science or the public benefit of vaccination. I question whether the safety of vaccines as they are manufactured, transported, and stored is as advertised. This is from the product insert for DTaP, note it cannot be considered conclusive, because the data collection methodology is crap. Would the manufacturer or FDA allow autism to be in the following list if either could conclusively exclude it? Honestly, I hope these guys have it right[1]. I think it would be fantastic if the solution were so simple. "Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting. Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine." source: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/ucm101580.pdf http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines... [1] http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/iodine-deficiency-cause-autism http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/iodine-deficien...
ecopoesis 13y ago
Chicken pox is not harmless. It kills adults, and if you get it as a child you can get shingles as an adult which is debilitating. Vaccinating on your own schedule is dumb. Do you have a MD? Did you develop the vaccine? Trust the experts. Skipping vaccines is dumb. Science and medicine make progress. To put this in HN terms: this is like saying I'm going to build my startup's website using DOS and XTs, because that's what existed when I was a kid. It's a dumb idea. If there's a vaccine available: get it. There is no scientific reason not to. Skipping vaccinations means your an irresponsible parent and member of society.
- Patrick_Devine 13y ago
  This is a weird one. I got shingles about two years ago (when I was 37). It was pretty horrible. My boss who sat in the next office from me got it within two weeks of when I got it, which is a pretty odd coincidence. When I talked to my doctor about all of this, her hypothesis was that there was probably some other virus which weakened our immune systems to the point where the dormant chicken pox virus could get out and travel up the nerve endings and break out. Her thinking was that as a result of kids getting vaccinated, we're actually not exposed to the virus a lot any more. She felt that as a result shingles was becoming more prevalent in adults because you're not generating as many antibodies. Through all of this, my daughter who was three at the time, also broke out in slight bumps on her legs. She had been vaccinated against the chicken pox, so the bumps went away and never developed into anything like a full blown case. I remember when I was a kid and got the chicken pox it was pretty horrible. My point is really that there are side effects to everything. I haven't seen a study of whether shingles is on the rise, so I don't know if my boss and I were just unlucky. My preference is to still vaccinate, but really I'd love to see that particular virus wiped off of the planet.
raintrees 13y ago
I agree on the last - From what I have read, boys are now strongly recommended to be vaccinated against human pappillomavirus to address potential throat cancer... Due to oral sex with infected females? http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20125260-10391704/human-papillomavirus-vaccine-for-boys-panel-says-yes/ http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20125260-10391704/hum... As well as plans/experiments for vaccines against smoking, alcohol consumption... I don't think vaccines are what I thought they were any more. Viruses are not the main target for some of these... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22895958 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22895958 http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/02/15/184232/alcoholism-vaccine-makes-alcohol-intolerable-to-drinkers http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/02/15/184232/alcoholism... So yes, we are being conditioned to be vaccinated against everything. Unfortunately, this is a profitable business for some, creating a feedback loop with questionable motives...

minikites 13y ago

Why not vaccinate for chickenpox? Helps reduce chance of scarring and reduces the chance for shingles. When I was a kid I gave chicken pox to my mom who got super sick. It would have been nice to have a vaccine back then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine I'm surprised at the number of comments on a tech site showing fear of technology.

brown9-2 13y ago
As an adult who had shingles, allow me to add that you definitely do not want shingles and it is not as benign as most of us remember childhood chicken pox as.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
It isn't so much a fear of technology, as a distrust of the authorities. Like the author said, some of it has a rational basis, and some does not. I know vaccines usually work, and are mostly safe. I remain very skeptical though for several reasons including: The difficulty of proving vaccine injury, and inadequate remedies. The business incentives caused by the NVCIA[1] (no fault vaccine court). Personal experience with doctors, pediatricians, and other medical professionals. The lack of credible statistics for vaccine adverse reactions. It is nearly impossible to find authorities on the subject who can calmly and rationally explain the risks and benefits, and help you evaluate the risk properly. It is also nearly impossible to find objective impartial information from any source. The "debate" on the subject is very polarized. Skepticism is often treated as heresy or idiocy. We still vaccinate our children, but not for everything[2], and not always on schedule. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Childhood_Vaccine_Injury_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Childhood_Vaccine_Inj... [2] We delayed the HEP-B at birth and opted not to take the rotavirus vaccine.
- venomsnake 13y ago
  HEP-B is one of the vaccines that a person can take anytime. (It is actually combined A+B 3 shot IIRC). HEP-B is transmitted by bodily fluid exchange so the real danger kicks during puberty. But it is extremely virulent sadly.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    >HEP-B is transmitted by bodily fluid exchange so the real danger kicks during puberty. Right, we determined the risk of contracting Hep-B was very low for infants. The other risk factors are blood transfusions, medical malpractice. They will get it before they start school. There is also very low chance for an infected infant/toddler to spread Hep-B so, no ethical worries there, unlike MMR.

lake99 13y ago

If your kids happen get chickenpox naturally in their childhood, they'll likely be safe. However, if they get when they grow up, it could easily be fatal. I don't know why there is an increase of autism in your area, or even if there really is an increase. But vaccines are a red herring.

Steuard 13y ago

I had a friend in college who used to talk about how she almost died as a kid due to complications of chicken pox. She was very vocally thrilled when the vaccine was announced.

venomsnake 13y ago

I meant that there weren't kids in my surrounding (consisting of a couple of thousand kids) with the kind of mental problems(symptoms) while growing up and having very strict immunization schedule. Of course in the 80s in Eastern Europe some things were just considered being a kid that I suppose will give you today some diagnosis. Was chicken pox or mumps the one that boils your testicles if you get is as an adult?

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
Mumps.

functional_test 13y ago

Honestly, how many times does the link between vaccines and autism have to be disproven before people get it? On the other hand, there is a direct link between not being vaccinated and getting sick. Probably why they want to vaccinate against everything. Even chicken pox can cause more severe disease like shingles [1]. You wouldn't want your kids riding in a car with only the safety features that existed when you were a child. Why would you do the same for their health? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpes_zoster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpes_zoster

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
>Honestly, how many times does the link between vaccines and autism have to be disproven before people get it? Honestly, there are many possible adverse reactions, and honestly, I want to see lots of good data. I know it may be costly, I don't care. I want to see the little bumps and dips in the plots of efficacy and safety for various vaccines. I want continuous quality control. I want it published publicly where the incidences of vaccine related injury were investigated, a cause found, and a problem corrected. I don't question the science or the public benefit of vaccination. I question whether the safety of vaccines as they are manufactured, transported, and stored is as advertised. This is from the product insert for DTaP, note it cannot be considered conclusive, because the data collection methodology is crap. Would the manufacturer or FDA allow autism to be in the following list if either could conclusively exclude it? Honestly, I hope these guys have it right[1]. I think it would be fantastic if the solution were so simple. "Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting. Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine." source: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/ucm101580.pdf http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines... [1] http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/iodine-deficiency-cause-autism http://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/iodine-deficien...

ecopoesis 13y ago

Chicken pox is not harmless. It kills adults, and if you get it as a child you can get shingles as an adult which is debilitating. Vaccinating on your own schedule is dumb. Do you have a MD? Did you develop the vaccine? Trust the experts. Skipping vaccines is dumb. Science and medicine make progress. To put this in HN terms: this is like saying I'm going to build my startup's website using DOS and XTs, because that's what existed when I was a kid. It's a dumb idea. If there's a vaccine available: get it. There is no scientific reason not to. Skipping vaccinations means your an irresponsible parent and member of society.

Patrick_Devine 13y ago
This is a weird one. I got shingles about two years ago (when I was 37). It was pretty horrible. My boss who sat in the next office from me got it within two weeks of when I got it, which is a pretty odd coincidence. When I talked to my doctor about all of this, her hypothesis was that there was probably some other virus which weakened our immune systems to the point where the dormant chicken pox virus could get out and travel up the nerve endings and break out. Her thinking was that as a result of kids getting vaccinated, we're actually not exposed to the virus a lot any more. She felt that as a result shingles was becoming more prevalent in adults because you're not generating as many antibodies. Through all of this, my daughter who was three at the time, also broke out in slight bumps on her legs. She had been vaccinated against the chicken pox, so the bumps went away and never developed into anything like a full blown case. I remember when I was a kid and got the chicken pox it was pretty horrible. My point is really that there are side effects to everything. I haven't seen a study of whether shingles is on the rise, so I don't know if my boss and I were just unlucky. My preference is to still vaccinate, but really I'd love to see that particular virus wiped off of the planet.

raintrees 13y ago

I agree on the last - From what I have read, boys are now strongly recommended to be vaccinated against human pappillomavirus to address potential throat cancer... Due to oral sex with infected females? http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20125260-10391704/human-papillomavirus-vaccine-for-boys-panel-says-yes/ http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20125260-10391704/hum... As well as plans/experiments for vaccines against smoking, alcohol consumption... I don't think vaccines are what I thought they were any more. Viruses are not the main target for some of these... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22895958 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22895958 http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/02/15/184232/alcoholism-vaccine-makes-alcohol-intolerable-to-drinkers http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/02/15/184232/alcoholism... So yes, we are being conditioned to be vaccinated against everything. Unfortunately, this is a profitable business for some, creating a feedback loop with questionable motives...