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> The problem is that companies don't exist in a vacuum, and soon as one adopts these marketing techniques, everybody has to adopt to "stay competitive" I was

> The problem is that companies don't exist in a vacuum, and soon as one adopts these marketing techniques, everybody has to adopt to "stay competitive" I was wondering the same thing, although Searls takes an example of Trader Joe's and tries to illustrate how avoiding marketing actually helps this business. I'm not from the US, so have never heard of Trader Joe's. I can't help but wonder how competitive it is compared to other businesses who do employ those huge marketing / big data operations. I am also curious how the customer experience itself differs between companies in this market.

justincormack 13y ago
For a European example, this profile of Zara is interesting. Its very much lean startup applied to retail, so about what customers want not manipulating demand http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/magazine/how-zara-grew-into-the-worlds-largest-fashion-retailer.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/magazine/how-zara-grew-int...
jbarham 13y ago
> I'm not from the US, so have never heard of Trader Joe's. Probably most Americans haven't heard of Trader Joe's since most of its stores are in Southern California. But it's a really cool grocery chain, and I say that as someone who generally hates shopping. Still one of the things we miss most about California since we moved to Australia.
- nkurz 13y ago
  Probably most Americans haven't heard of Trader Joe's since most of its stores are in Southern California. You must have blinked! They started there, but have expanded rapidly across the US in recent years. They now have 400+ stores in 35 states: http://www.traderjoes.com/pdf/locations/all-llocations.pdf http://www.traderjoes.com/pdf/locations/all-llocations.pdf
- NateDad 13y ago
  There's a bunch in Massachusetts, at least.
- cenhyperion 13y ago
  They're kind of everywhere now. I was introduced to them when I was living in Chicago 5 years ago.
Amadou 13y ago
Trader Joes has a very loyal customer base, sometimes described as fanatical. Based on their continuing expansion ( http://www.traderjoes.com/stores/index.asp http://www.traderjoes.com/stores/index.asp ) they appear to be very successful. They are owned by Aldi Nord. In my case it wasn't really that I was attracted to shopping at Trader Joes, so much as the bullshit at all the other grocery stores pushed me away. For example, a couple of them now have advertising videos (with loud audio) running right in your face as you stand in the checkout line. That sent my aggravation level through the roof. The very last time I was in one of those stores I literally abandoned my cart in the line and walked out because of it. I simply could not take it. Trader Joes isn't perfect, but they don't come across as contemptuous the way the extreme bullshitters do. I think there is at least a lesson here about the "arms race" of marketing bullshit. For decades, maybe centuries, stores have run sales. They are a level of bullshit, it adds to the cognitive load by making customers decide to buy now or wait for a possible sale in the future. But it's low-level enough that few people are annoyed by weekly sales. It is only in the recent ~20 years that we've seen a major escalation of bullshit at grocery stores. Technology has enabled things like loyalty cards, targeted marketing, individualized flyers in the mail, purchase-specific coupons on check-out, blaring videos through-out the store, etc. This marketing bullshit may well be feeding itself. But the greater the bullshit, the more obvious to the customers just how much better opting out would be. At some point it becomes obvious to the majority of customers that "the only winning move is not to play." At least I hope so because that end game means the real bullshitters get punished for it, rather than rewarded as hcarvalhoalves postulated.
- gingerlime 13y ago
  Thanks for the detailed info. By the name alone I assumed it was some kind of a hardware store :) Slightly on a tangent, but it makes me wondering if things like screens with audio in-store is exactly the kind of marketing spiel that backfires. Short-term, if you put one, I bet it could increase sale. The novelty, the attention grabbing potential etc. But this is a very short-term, short-sighted win, because when it becomes prevalent everywhere, it's just a nuisance and probably decreases sales. (just my non-scientific, half rant random thoughts on the subject). In any case, I'm glad to hear there are some successful alternatives out there, that realize the potential of not jumping on the marketing bandwagon.
jfarmer 13y ago
Trader Joe's only works in a world where everyone is already using these tactics. Imagine a world where everyone was like Trader Joe's. The first grocer with a loyalty program that offered discounts, etc. would suddenly seem new and interesting. That grocer could easily position themselves as caring more about their customer than the others who have no such program. Branding and market positioning isn't an absolute thing. It's done relative to other folks already in the market.

justincormack 13y ago

For a European example, this profile of Zara is interesting. Its very much lean startup applied to retail, so about what customers want not manipulating demand http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/magazine/how-zara-grew-into-the-worlds-largest-fashion-retailer.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/11/magazine/how-zara-grew-int...

jbarham 13y ago

> I'm not from the US, so have never heard of Trader Joe's. Probably most Americans haven't heard of Trader Joe's since most of its stores are in Southern California. But it's a really cool grocery chain, and I say that as someone who generally hates shopping. Still one of the things we miss most about California since we moved to Australia.

nkurz 13y ago
Probably most Americans haven't heard of Trader Joe's since most of its stores are in Southern California. You must have blinked! They started there, but have expanded rapidly across the US in recent years. They now have 400+ stores in 35 states: http://www.traderjoes.com/pdf/locations/all-llocations.pdf http://www.traderjoes.com/pdf/locations/all-llocations.pdf
NateDad 13y ago
There's a bunch in Massachusetts, at least.
cenhyperion 13y ago
They're kind of everywhere now. I was introduced to them when I was living in Chicago 5 years ago.

Amadou 13y ago

Trader Joes has a very loyal customer base, sometimes described as fanatical. Based on their continuing expansion ( http://www.traderjoes.com/stores/index.asp http://www.traderjoes.com/stores/index.asp ) they appear to be very successful. They are owned by Aldi Nord. In my case it wasn't really that I was attracted to shopping at Trader Joes, so much as the bullshit at all the other grocery stores pushed me away. For example, a couple of them now have advertising videos (with loud audio) running right in your face as you stand in the checkout line. That sent my aggravation level through the roof. The very last time I was in one of those stores I literally abandoned my cart in the line and walked out because of it. I simply could not take it. Trader Joes isn't perfect, but they don't come across as contemptuous the way the extreme bullshitters do. I think there is at least a lesson here about the "arms race" of marketing bullshit. For decades, maybe centuries, stores have run sales. They are a level of bullshit, it adds to the cognitive load by making customers decide to buy now or wait for a possible sale in the future. But it's low-level enough that few people are annoyed by weekly sales. It is only in the recent ~20 years that we've seen a major escalation of bullshit at grocery stores. Technology has enabled things like loyalty cards, targeted marketing, individualized flyers in the mail, purchase-specific coupons on check-out, blaring videos through-out the store, etc. This marketing bullshit may well be feeding itself. But the greater the bullshit, the more obvious to the customers just how much better opting out would be. At some point it becomes obvious to the majority of customers that "the only winning move is not to play." At least I hope so because that end game means the real bullshitters get punished for it, rather than rewarded as hcarvalhoalves postulated.

gingerlime 13y ago
Thanks for the detailed info. By the name alone I assumed it was some kind of a hardware store :) Slightly on a tangent, but it makes me wondering if things like screens with audio in-store is exactly the kind of marketing spiel that backfires. Short-term, if you put one, I bet it could increase sale. The novelty, the attention grabbing potential etc. But this is a very short-term, short-sighted win, because when it becomes prevalent everywhere, it's just a nuisance and probably decreases sales. (just my non-scientific, half rant random thoughts on the subject). In any case, I'm glad to hear there are some successful alternatives out there, that realize the potential of not jumping on the marketing bandwagon.

jfarmer 13y ago

Trader Joe's only works in a world where everyone is already using these tactics. Imagine a world where everyone was like Trader Joe's. The first grocer with a loyalty program that offered discounts, etc. would suddenly seem new and interesting. That grocer could easily position themselves as caring more about their customer than the others who have no such program. Branding and market positioning isn't an absolute thing. It's done relative to other folks already in the market.