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Because conspiracy theories are not only stupid, they are annoying. This issue has been addressed on the tor-talk list many times. Please show one iota of proof

Because conspiracy theories are not only stupid, they are annoying. This issue has been addressed on the tor-talk list many times. Please show one iota of proof. Isn't this exactly what someone would have said about the NSA spying on us even just a few months back? Did we learn from that AT ALL or just anytime we don't like a theory we will call that person a tin foil hat wearing nutcase?

eksith 13y ago
The NSA spying was just theory until proof was presented. Proof is the only thing that differentiates tin-foil wearing conjecture and fact. And until we have just such evidence for a backdoor in Tor (maybe another leak?) all we have is just idle speculation of what if this and that etc... This story is neither helpful nor enlightening in that regard as it has no evidence. Just mere speculation and insinuation.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago
  This is the wrong conclusion to take from the NSA spying revelations. The proper conclusion is that anything that cannot be independently verified is suspect and to not put an inordinate amount of trust into any single system. With motivated and well funded adversaries like the NSA, there is no such thing as too paranoid. There is value in discussing these conspiracy theories, if only to disseminate information and allow others to determine their own risk assessment. The conflict of interest inherent in a law enforcement agency funding a tool for circumventing detection is enough to raise alarm bells for some classes of users.
Clanan 13y ago
I don't think his comment is as extreme as calling people nutcases. Have recent events encouraged us to distrust other entities? Yes. But, as the parent alludes, it's important to temper distrust with investigation and facts and not just blindly run away from everything. Otherwise even more damage will be done.
- ryguytilidie 13y ago
  "it's important to temper distrust with investigation and facts and not just blindly run away from everything." Completely agree, but its a little silly for the person who was just proven wrong to continue to heap the burden of proof on everyone but themselves.
thex86 13y ago
> Isn't this exactly what someone would have said about the NSA spying on us even just a few months back? Did we learn from that AT ALL or just anytime we don't like a theory we will call that person a tin foil hat wearing nutcase? The NSA is a different case. We do not know anything about it, except from the leaks. But we do know things about Tor. a). Actively developed, follows the best principles possible. Open discussions in IRC, active mailing list, developers who respond to queries. b). Highly researched by some of the best universities in the world. Cambridge and Waterloo come to mind instantly. c). There has not been a single case of mistrust on their part that should make someone suspicious about them. The day Tor does something like this, not only they lose their funding, they lose users and they become a dead project. With so much reputation at stake -- and they are respected people in the community -- Dingledine and Mathewson doing something like this? I don't think so.
- ryguytilidie 13y ago
  Sure, I understand that, but if that is the argument, just make those three points. Arguing "Because conspiracy theories are not only stupid, they are annoying. This issue has been addressed on the tor-talk list many times. Please show one iota of proof." is just silly, as though because we don't have factual proof the government is doing something wrong we are "stupid and annoying". All I'm saying is that this argument lacks a ton of credibility in a world where we just found out our own government spies on everything we do and the reaction from the mainstream went from "those tin foil hat wearing morons!" to "eh, they were right, and I was wrong, why would that possibly make me change my beliefs?".
bsullivan01 13y ago
with what we've been hearing from NSA and Snowden, nothing can be dismissed as a "conspiracy theory." Proof might very well be in Snoden's unreleased docs or in some dossier at NSA. You don't have to show proof to show mistrust I'd be more wary of NSA contributing code directly or through anon HUMINT accounts, hoping some of it slips through.
- ryguytilidie 13y ago
  Yep, this is all I'm saying really. The exact same people who were calling the NSA spying stories a conspiracy theory are now saying the same about this is just shocking honestly. I don't understand how one lacks self awareness that badly. "hey I mocked your totally correct point for years, and you were right, now back to giving you zero credibility the minute you make the next argument".

eksith 13y ago

The NSA spying was just theory until proof was presented. Proof is the only thing that differentiates tin-foil wearing conjecture and fact. And until we have just such evidence for a backdoor in Tor (maybe another leak?) all we have is just idle speculation of what if this and that etc... This story is neither helpful nor enlightening in that regard as it has no evidence. Just mere speculation and insinuation.

hackinthebochs 13y ago
This is the wrong conclusion to take from the NSA spying revelations. The proper conclusion is that anything that cannot be independently verified is suspect and to not put an inordinate amount of trust into any single system. With motivated and well funded adversaries like the NSA, there is no such thing as too paranoid. There is value in discussing these conspiracy theories, if only to disseminate information and allow others to determine their own risk assessment. The conflict of interest inherent in a law enforcement agency funding a tool for circumventing detection is enough to raise alarm bells for some classes of users.

Clanan 13y ago

I don't think his comment is as extreme as calling people nutcases. Have recent events encouraged us to distrust other entities? Yes. But, as the parent alludes, it's important to temper distrust with investigation and facts and not just blindly run away from everything. Otherwise even more damage will be done.

ryguytilidie 13y ago
"it's important to temper distrust with investigation and facts and not just blindly run away from everything." Completely agree, but its a little silly for the person who was just proven wrong to continue to heap the burden of proof on everyone but themselves.

thex86 13y ago

> Isn't this exactly what someone would have said about the NSA spying on us even just a few months back? Did we learn from that AT ALL or just anytime we don't like a theory we will call that person a tin foil hat wearing nutcase? The NSA is a different case. We do not know anything about it, except from the leaks. But we do know things about Tor. a). Actively developed, follows the best principles possible. Open discussions in IRC, active mailing list, developers who respond to queries. b). Highly researched by some of the best universities in the world. Cambridge and Waterloo come to mind instantly. c). There has not been a single case of mistrust on their part that should make someone suspicious about them. The day Tor does something like this, not only they lose their funding, they lose users and they become a dead project. With so much reputation at stake -- and they are respected people in the community -- Dingledine and Mathewson doing something like this? I don't think so.

ryguytilidie 13y ago
Sure, I understand that, but if that is the argument, just make those three points. Arguing "Because conspiracy theories are not only stupid, they are annoying. This issue has been addressed on the tor-talk list many times. Please show one iota of proof." is just silly, as though because we don't have factual proof the government is doing something wrong we are "stupid and annoying". All I'm saying is that this argument lacks a ton of credibility in a world where we just found out our own government spies on everything we do and the reaction from the mainstream went from "those tin foil hat wearing morons!" to "eh, they were right, and I was wrong, why would that possibly make me change my beliefs?".

bsullivan01 13y ago

with what we've been hearing from NSA and Snowden, nothing can be dismissed as a "conspiracy theory." Proof might very well be in Snoden's unreleased docs or in some dossier at NSA. You don't have to show proof to show mistrust I'd be more wary of NSA contributing code directly or through anon HUMINT accounts, hoping some of it slips through.

ryguytilidie 13y ago
Yep, this is all I'm saying really. The exact same people who were calling the NSA spying stories a conspiracy theory are now saying the same about this is just shocking honestly. I don't understand how one lacks self awareness that badly. "hey I mocked your totally correct point for years, and you were right, now back to giving you zero credibility the minute you make the next argument".