5 ms·

Probably worse: http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/co2.html http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/co2.html "Electricity is a si

Probably worse: http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/co2.html http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/co2.html "Electricity is a significant source of energy in the United States and is used to power homes, business, and industry. The combustion of fossil fuels to generate electricity is the largest single source of CO2 emissions in the nation, accounting for about 38% of total U.S. CO2 emissions and 32% of total U.S. greenhouse gas emissions in 2011. The type of fossil fuel used to generate electricity will emit different amounts of CO2. To produce a given amount of electricity, burning coal will produce more CO2 than oil or natural gas." A lot of people don't realize the amount of CO2 that electricity produces. http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2013/08/21/with-the-tesla-model-s-elon-musk-has-created-a-nice-fossil-fuel-car/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2013/08/21/with-the-... "The Tesla’s state-of-the-art materials, particularly that $30,000 battery, take a massive amount of energy to build–and that energy comes from fossil fuels, particularly coal. In fact, some studies argue that the Tesla battery takes so much fossil fuel energy to make that the car over its lifetime emits more CO2 than a gasoline-powered car."

chc 13y ago
The first link doesn't seem all that relevant (you're citing one number tangentially related to the issue at hand and acting like that constitutes a comparison — surely that would require at least two numbers, if not more). The second link is a propaganda piece on a guy's blog.
maxerickson 13y ago
The Tesla's battery should generally be more recyclable than burned gasoline. Especially in terms of the energy bound up in manufacturing it.
schiffern 13y ago
Yes, and you're forgetting that the Model S has the equivalent of a 2 gallon tank to go ~260 miles. Big expensive stationary heat engines are still more efficient than small cost- and weight-optimized heat engines. >"In fact, some studies argue that the Tesla battery takes so much fossil fuel energy to make that the car over its lifetime emits more CO2 than a gasoline-powered car." That car being a Prius, not a comparable full-size sedan. The study also assumes a vehicle lifespan of 100,000 miles, or about 8 years of driving. I would be quite surprised if an all-aluminum car with few moving parts dies 3 years before the average age of cars on the road today (11.4 years). Link to the actual report: http://www.climatecentral.org/news/a-roadmap-to-climate-friendly-cars-2013-16318 http://www.climatecentral.org/news/a-roadmap-to-climate-frie... Edit: digging deeper, their whole argument ultimately rests on this report: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es103607c http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es103607c GreenCarCongress reviewed it, saying >They also found higher life cycle global warming emissions than have been previously reported. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/04/ntnu-20110421.html http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/04/ntnu-20110421.html
oblio 13y ago
This doesn't matter as much now and will matter less and less since most developed countries are moving towards renewable energy. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#Sustainable_energy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#Sustainable_e... And they are actually doing it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#Renewable_energy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#Renewable_ene... The share of electricity produced from renewable energy in Germany has increased from 6.3 percent of the national total in 2000 to over 25 percent in the first half of 2012. Renewable energy share of gross electricity consumption rose from 10% in 2005 to 20% in 2011.
shawn-furyan 13y ago
>To produce a given amount of electricity, burning coal will produce more CO2 than oil or natural gas There are many factors that this statement fails to take into account. Perhaps most importantly, the efficiency at which that energy is turned into useful power to propel the vehicle. Further, this is speaking very broadly about these fuel sources, and so is not directly applicable to specific complex. A quick google search surfaced a DOE primer[1] on EVs that claims that they are both "Energy Efficient" since "Electric vehicles convert about 59–62% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels—conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 17–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels." and "Environmentally Friendly" because "EVs emit no tailpipe pollutants, although the power plant producing the electricity may emit them. Electricity from nuclear-, hydro-, solar-, or wind-powered plants causes no air pollutants." On the latter point, power plant technology is increasingly moving away from dirty coal generation processes in the developed world, so gas powered vehicles will be at an increasingly great disadvantage. The EPA also uses a method for rating vehicle fuel efficiency of non-petrol burning vehicles called eMPG[2] (effective miles per gallon) that takes into account the energy potential of the ultimate fuel source/sources used by the vehicle and converts them to the MPG (miles per gallon of petrol) scale. Electric vehicles rule the top of the rated vehicles followed by a couple hybrids and deisel compacts. EVs tend to be ~2x more fuel efficient than similarly sized petrol vehicles when compared by this particular method. Concerning the Model S in particular, the EPA rates it as the most fuel efficient large sedan at 95 eMPG. Speaking generally, the only car class (does not take into account trucks and SUVs) that is led in fuel efficiency according to the EPA is the Midsize Station Wagon class. It is led by the Prius Model V, and the class does not seem to have a pure EV option. Every other class is led in fuel efficiency by an EV. Finally, according to the EPA's Greenhouse Gas Emissions calculator, the 2013 Tesla model S generates a US average of 250 grams per mile driven of Greenhouse gas emissions compared to the average new car at 500 gpm[3]. So half as bad as the average new vehicle in terms of GHG emissions. P.S. Sorry for the somewhat poorly structured nature of this comment. It evolved organically along with the research used to produce it. [1]http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml [2]http://www.epa.gov/carlabel/electriclabelreadmore.htm#2 http://www.epa.gov/carlabel/electriclabelreadmore.htm#2 [3]http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?zipCode=78641&year=2013&vehicleId=33368&action=bt3 http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?zipCode=78641&year=20... [edit: I can never seem to remember that the editor eats up single newlines, fixed the footnotes section so that they don't all appear on the same line.]

chc 13y ago

The first link doesn't seem all that relevant (you're citing one number tangentially related to the issue at hand and acting like that constitutes a comparison — surely that would require at least two numbers, if not more). The second link is a propaganda piece on a guy's blog.

maxerickson 13y ago

The Tesla's battery should generally be more recyclable than burned gasoline. Especially in terms of the energy bound up in manufacturing it.

schiffern 13y ago

Yes, and you're forgetting that the Model S has the equivalent of a 2 gallon tank to go ~260 miles. Big expensive stationary heat engines are still more efficient than small cost- and weight-optimized heat engines. >"In fact, some studies argue that the Tesla battery takes so much fossil fuel energy to make that the car over its lifetime emits more CO2 than a gasoline-powered car." That car being a Prius, not a comparable full-size sedan. The study also assumes a vehicle lifespan of 100,000 miles, or about 8 years of driving. I would be quite surprised if an all-aluminum car with few moving parts dies 3 years before the average age of cars on the road today (11.4 years). Link to the actual report: http://www.climatecentral.org/news/a-roadmap-to-climate-friendly-cars-2013-16318 http://www.climatecentral.org/news/a-roadmap-to-climate-frie... Edit: digging deeper, their whole argument ultimately rests on this report: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es103607c http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es103607c GreenCarCongress reviewed it, saying >They also found higher life cycle global warming emissions than have been previously reported. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/04/ntnu-20110421.html http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/04/ntnu-20110421.html

oblio 13y ago

This doesn't matter as much now and will matter less and less since most developed countries are moving towards renewable energy. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#Sustainable_energy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#Sustainable_e... And they are actually doing it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#Renewable_energy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany#Renewable_ene... The share of electricity produced from renewable energy in Germany has increased from 6.3 percent of the national total in 2000 to over 25 percent in the first half of 2012. Renewable energy share of gross electricity consumption rose from 10% in 2005 to 20% in 2011.

shawn-furyan 13y ago

>To produce a given amount of electricity, burning coal will produce more CO2 than oil or natural gas There are many factors that this statement fails to take into account. Perhaps most importantly, the efficiency at which that energy is turned into useful power to propel the vehicle. Further, this is speaking very broadly about these fuel sources, and so is not directly applicable to specific complex. A quick google search surfaced a DOE primer[1] on EVs that claims that they are both "Energy Efficient" since "Electric vehicles convert about 59–62% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels—conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 17–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels." and "Environmentally Friendly" because "EVs emit no tailpipe pollutants, although the power plant producing the electricity may emit them. Electricity from nuclear-, hydro-, solar-, or wind-powered plants causes no air pollutants." On the latter point, power plant technology is increasingly moving away from dirty coal generation processes in the developed world, so gas powered vehicles will be at an increasingly great disadvantage. The EPA also uses a method for rating vehicle fuel efficiency of non-petrol burning vehicles called eMPG[2] (effective miles per gallon) that takes into account the energy potential of the ultimate fuel source/sources used by the vehicle and converts them to the MPG (miles per gallon of petrol) scale. Electric vehicles rule the top of the rated vehicles followed by a couple hybrids and deisel compacts. EVs tend to be ~2x more fuel efficient than similarly sized petrol vehicles when compared by this particular method. Concerning the Model S in particular, the EPA rates it as the most fuel efficient large sedan at 95 eMPG. Speaking generally, the only car class (does not take into account trucks and SUVs) that is led in fuel efficiency according to the EPA is the Midsize Station Wagon class. It is led by the Prius Model V, and the class does not seem to have a pure EV option. Every other class is led in fuel efficiency by an EV. Finally, according to the EPA's Greenhouse Gas Emissions calculator, the 2013 Tesla model S generates a US average of 250 grams per mile driven of Greenhouse gas emissions compared to the average new car at 500 gpm[3]. So half as bad as the average new vehicle in terms of GHG emissions. P.S. Sorry for the somewhat poorly structured nature of this comment. It evolved organically along with the research used to produce it. [1]http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml [2]http://www.epa.gov/carlabel/electriclabelreadmore.htm#2 http://www.epa.gov/carlabel/electriclabelreadmore.htm#2 [3]http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?zipCode=78641&year=2013&vehicleId=33368&action=bt3 http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?zipCode=78641&year=20... [edit: I can never seem to remember that the editor eats up single newlines, fixed the footnotes section so that they don't all appear on the same line.]