8 ms·

I really hate these comparisons. What is the Model S trying to be? A luxury car? A sports car? A trip vehicle? Every article I read compares the Model S to some

by MSM 13y ago

I really hate these comparisons. What is the Model S trying to be? A luxury car? A sports car? A trip vehicle? Every article I read compares the Model S to some abhorrently expensive vehicle that does some specific thing poorly in comparison to Model S. I'd be much more interested in reading a top to bottom comparison between the Model S and a similar car. Do it with a BMW M3 or something, a reasonably priced luxury car that still tries to tailor to the sporty crowd. The Rapide is a $150k car that is outperformed by a $25k Ford Mustang. No one has ever gone into the draft room and thought to themselves "If only I could design a vehicle that cost less to produce than the Rapide AND was sportier!". Outperforming it is not an achievement.

bhauer 13y ago
On the other hand, most of us already know how the Model S compares to its more natural rivals. The Internet is flush with information including such straight-forward comparisons. I actually revel in wildcard comparisons that demonstrate just how remarkable the Model S is. And let's not overlook the obvious: they are both upscale sedans with a penchant for spirited driving. This isn't a sedan vs coupe or sedan vs pickup truck comparison. It is actually conceivable that a Rapide buyer would cross-shop a Model S because of the unique cache of the Model S, and much less conceivable they would cross-shop a Mustang.
- Shivetya 13y ago
  At the price point of all these cars they damn well be better amazing. Honestly I could care less about how great cars that cost as much as some homes do. For pete's sake we are talking about cars that cost upwards if not more than 100,000. Now, when Tesla starts slogging it out in the 30 to 40k range write me, until then they are just skimming off the crowd that with excess money who expect the same in their cars. Hats off to their accomplishment, but maintaining quality and luxury at that price range is baked into the price.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    You only get up to around 100k if you are getting the high-end versions... The Roadster was the 100k+ one.
  - teamonkey 13y ago
    > I could care less about how great cars that cost as much as some homes do. Good luck finding a home in the UK for the same price as a Tesla S.
    - dagw 13y ago
      The Tesla S costs in the $70-100k range. I cannot image that it would be too hard to find houses in that price range in the UK, given that I found this after 20 seconds of Googling. http://money.uk.msn.com/mortgages-and-homes/30-homes-for-%C2%A330k http://money.uk.msn.com/mortgages-and-homes/30-homes-for-%C2... Finding a house here in Sweden in that price range is easy, as long as you're willing to live where no one else wants to.
      - vacri 13y ago
        Come on, most of those houses are either in the middle of nowhere or 'needs updating', 'needs work' and so forth. You can buy houses for <$1k in the US if you go to where they're priced at that, but there's a reason why they're that cheap, and they certainly don't represent anywhere near the usual experience.
        switch007 13y ago
        Here's a list of properties within 3 miles from Liverpool city centre (well, a 'Zoopla mile' is a bit different) for £40-60k ($62-93). I'm sure many will need updating. There's 300+ on the list http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/houses/liverpool-city-centre/newest/?is_retirement_home=false&is_shared_ownership=false&new_homes=include&price_max=60000&price_min=40000&q=Liverpool%20City%20Centre%2C%20Merseyside&radius=3&search_source=facets http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/houses/liverpool-city-centr...
        adw 13y ago
        Some of the worst estates in the entirety of the UK are around there, though. Do you really want to live in Toxteth? Honestly?
        13y ago
  - SEJeff 13y ago
    Elon Musk has stated that as his end goal. He said first he had to make electric cars sexy and sporty[1]. Next he wanted to make a slightly cheaper nice sedan as a high end family car, the Model S[2]. FYI the Model S starts at $71,070 per their website. After that the next goal is the Model X[3], and then a second revision / smaller version of the Model S, which will start around $30,000[4]. So instead of being so sceptical, you should be like holy shit! Elon Musk is a trail blazer and he is doing to the automotive industry what apple did to the personal computer and mobile industry. So far he has delivered on everything he's promised with Tesla and SpaceX, so I doubt he will fail to deliver his stated goal of a 30k car. [1] http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster [2] http://www.teslamotors.com/models http://www.teslamotors.com/models [3] http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx [4] http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/07/tesla-sold-5150-models-s-evs-in-q2/ http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/07/tesla-sold-5150-models-...
  - SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
    > cars that cost as much as some homes do Homes in London? Not even close.
  - ams6110 13y ago
    Any car in this price range is as much or more a fashion statement than it is anything else. And most reviews of "Tesla vs. Car X" seem contrived to illustrate a preconceived conclusion, whether it's Top Gear who somewhat artificially highlighted the very real range issues with the Tesla or this review which highlights an acceleration capability that you really can't use unless you're on a track. Operating costs of these cars are meaningless to people who can afford them, so until there's a Tesla in the $20,000--$30,000 range I don't see that as something that's going to factor into a purchase decision for most people. I personally would never spend more than $10,000 on a car, and I'd have to be having a really weak moment to even spend that. I still find Tesla to be interesting to read about, they are quite clearly the best effort yet at an electric vehicle, but for me they will likely always be just a curiosity, sort of like a Cray supercomputer. Amazing, but really special-purpose.
    - ericd 13y ago
      I don't know about you, but I take advantage of quick 0-60 acceleration all the time. It's more things like high top speeds that are useless except at a track.
    - gsnedders 13y ago
      I dunno — I see the Model S as far less of a fashion statement than most other comparably priced cars. If one wishes to buy an electric car (e.g., because you believe in reducing pollution, because of the lower cost of running due to tax exemptions, etc.) and needs a range of over 200 miles, there are two options: the Venturi Fétish and the Tesla Model S (in some places the tax exemptions do not apply to hybrids, so if you need the range, that's it). I also wouldn't write off operating costs as a reason — certainly, those who can afford them can likely afford the operating costs of similarly priced ICE cars, but my experience is those with a greater amount of money tend to be more frugal than those with slightly above average income. There's also the difference between wealth and income — purchase power for something like a car may well be done on the basis of wealth, while maintaining it done on income.
  - nshepperd 13y ago
    > Honestly I could care less about Couldn't care less. Couldn't.
    - lutusp 13y ago
      That construction is on a par with using "literally" to mean "figuratively" (surprisingly common), or "he doesn't know s * * t" when obviously the speaker means "he does know s * * t."
- _JamesA_ 13y ago
  cache != cachet
umsm 13y ago
I think these comparisons are useful. You are comparing cars that don't really compete, yet the Tesla matches or outperforms them. I personally like to know that it's faster than X or better equipped than Y or drives better than Z.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  So you would also be very interested in a shootout between a Tesla and a dirt bike? They don't compete, but if the Tesla can go round a *pavement track better, I guess that's useful?
  - umsm 13y ago
    Please re-read my original comment. I did say cars. I wouldn't buy an AM because I need a 4 door sedan for my lifestyle. Yet, isn't it useful to know that it is as refined as a high-end sports car?
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      I did say cars. Fine. So you'd be interested to see the Tesla compared to a WRC car, and you would find it useful to hear that the Tesla can pull higher g's on an asphalt skidpad and has a nicer interior? isn't it useful to know that it is as refined as a high-end sports car You got that out of this video? They barely even mention fit-and-finish. The main focus between the two is the acceleration comparison, which says zilch about refinement.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        "So you'd be interested to see the Tesla compared to a WRC car, and you would find it useful to hear that the Tesla can pull higher g's on an asphalt skidpad and has a nicer interior?" Sure, I'd read that article. Throw the Tesla onto a dirt track too, I'd read that as well. Hell, I want to know if it can go upside-down in a sewer tunnel. I don't see the problem here.
nbakshi 13y ago
Automobile did a comparison with BMW M5. Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4
lambdasquirrel 13y ago
But the Rapide does try to tailor to the sporty crowd. It is marketed as such. It is significantly lighter than rivals like the various Bentley and the Rolls Royce four-doors, and it was tested on the Nordschleife. It performs favorably compared to the BMW M5, and people have compared the two. I don't think it's fair to compare the Model S with the M3. The M3 (well, the M4) aims to be a compact executive. In terms of wheelbase, the Model S is much closer to the M5 and the Rapide.
rdl 13y ago
I personally cross-shop the Tesla Model S and the Audi S7. A future Model S AWD and an Audi A7/S7 TDI would be an even more direct comparison. They price out (loaded) to within $5k, if you take into account the $2500 federal tax credit and sales tax exemption in WA. The depreciation on a diesel and on a Tesla are probably comparable. Tesla would be clear savings on fuel costs, maintenance, and probably would have more curb appeal at least in SFBA. I'd probably take the Audi A7 3.0 TDI if I needed AWD today. What I really want is the Tesla S4/S5 or 335is-equivalent, though.
- r00fus 13y ago
  > What I really want is the Tesla S4/S5 or 335is-equivalent, though. Sorry, I don't think the tech is there. Either the range would suffer (due to more compact frame allowing for fewer cells safely) or the power would be gimped (to allow for lower overall battery capacity). Electric cars are competing with the entire petroleum-fuel supply chain, and as such, are fighting a david vs. goliath battle. That Tesla does this, has won consistently, and wins with style is why their stock is up 500% over the past year. Of course, they've picked their battles, and fighting the S4 or 3 series isn't one of those they're ready to fight (yet). Maybe, like Apple, they never will (Apple ceded the enthusiast/gaming desktop market years ago).
  - rdl 13y ago
    I guess the question is how much they'd gain in acceleration/performance (and thus be able to give up on battery capacity) by making the overall vehicle smaller and (ex-battery) 200-300 pounds lighter, vs. how much space for battery they'd give up. I don't mind if the S4-replacement costs $60-80k (loaded) vs. $80-100k for a Model S. I'd also take a car which had the same general size and chassis as the Model S but with a larger, more-secure trunk at the cost of seating capacity. My dream car is a 2-seat coupe with a trunk the size of a compact pickup truck bed.
    - gaadd33 13y ago
      Like a Porsche 928?
snambi 13y ago
Hey, its just a comparison. Nothing wrong with it. Especially TESLA is a new type of car. Such comparisons make much more sense in terms of buyer awareness.

by MSM 13y ago

bhauer 13y ago

On the other hand, most of us already know how the Model S compares to its more natural rivals. The Internet is flush with information including such straight-forward comparisons. I actually revel in wildcard comparisons that demonstrate just how remarkable the Model S is. And let's not overlook the obvious: they are both upscale sedans with a penchant for spirited driving. This isn't a sedan vs coupe or sedan vs pickup truck comparison. It is actually conceivable that a Rapide buyer would cross-shop a Model S because of the unique cache of the Model S, and much less conceivable they would cross-shop a Mustang.

Shivetya 13y ago
At the price point of all these cars they damn well be better amazing. Honestly I could care less about how great cars that cost as much as some homes do. For pete's sake we are talking about cars that cost upwards if not more than 100,000. Now, when Tesla starts slogging it out in the 30 to 40k range write me, until then they are just skimming off the crowd that with excess money who expect the same in their cars. Hats off to their accomplishment, but maintaining quality and luxury at that price range is baked into the price.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  You only get up to around 100k if you are getting the high-end versions... The Roadster was the 100k+ one.
- teamonkey 13y ago
  > I could care less about how great cars that cost as much as some homes do. Good luck finding a home in the UK for the same price as a Tesla S.
  - dagw 13y ago
    The Tesla S costs in the $70-100k range. I cannot image that it would be too hard to find houses in that price range in the UK, given that I found this after 20 seconds of Googling. http://money.uk.msn.com/mortgages-and-homes/30-homes-for-%C2%A330k http://money.uk.msn.com/mortgages-and-homes/30-homes-for-%C2... Finding a house here in Sweden in that price range is easy, as long as you're willing to live where no one else wants to.
    - vacri 13y ago
      Come on, most of those houses are either in the middle of nowhere or 'needs updating', 'needs work' and so forth. You can buy houses for <$1k in the US if you go to where they're priced at that, but there's a reason why they're that cheap, and they certainly don't represent anywhere near the usual experience.
      - switch007 13y ago
        Here's a list of properties within 3 miles from Liverpool city centre (well, a 'Zoopla mile' is a bit different) for £40-60k ($62-93). I'm sure many will need updating. There's 300+ on the list http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/houses/liverpool-city-centre/newest/?is_retirement_home=false&is_shared_ownership=false&new_homes=include&price_max=60000&price_min=40000&q=Liverpool%20City%20Centre%2C%20Merseyside&radius=3&search_source=facets http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/houses/liverpool-city-centr...
        adw 13y ago
        Some of the worst estates in the entirety of the UK are around there, though. Do you really want to live in Toxteth? Honestly?
        13y ago
- SEJeff 13y ago
  Elon Musk has stated that as his end goal. He said first he had to make electric cars sexy and sporty[1]. Next he wanted to make a slightly cheaper nice sedan as a high end family car, the Model S[2]. FYI the Model S starts at $71,070 per their website. After that the next goal is the Model X[3], and then a second revision / smaller version of the Model S, which will start around $30,000[4]. So instead of being so sceptical, you should be like holy shit! Elon Musk is a trail blazer and he is doing to the automotive industry what apple did to the personal computer and mobile industry. So far he has delivered on everything he's promised with Tesla and SpaceX, so I doubt he will fail to deliver his stated goal of a 30k car. [1] http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster [2] http://www.teslamotors.com/models http://www.teslamotors.com/models [3] http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx [4] http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/07/tesla-sold-5150-models-s-evs-in-q2/ http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/07/tesla-sold-5150-models-...
- SideburnsOfDoom 13y ago
  > cars that cost as much as some homes do Homes in London? Not even close.
- ams6110 13y ago
  Any car in this price range is as much or more a fashion statement than it is anything else. And most reviews of "Tesla vs. Car X" seem contrived to illustrate a preconceived conclusion, whether it's Top Gear who somewhat artificially highlighted the very real range issues with the Tesla or this review which highlights an acceleration capability that you really can't use unless you're on a track. Operating costs of these cars are meaningless to people who can afford them, so until there's a Tesla in the $20,000--$30,000 range I don't see that as something that's going to factor into a purchase decision for most people. I personally would never spend more than $10,000 on a car, and I'd have to be having a really weak moment to even spend that. I still find Tesla to be interesting to read about, they are quite clearly the best effort yet at an electric vehicle, but for me they will likely always be just a curiosity, sort of like a Cray supercomputer. Amazing, but really special-purpose.
  - ericd 13y ago
    I don't know about you, but I take advantage of quick 0-60 acceleration all the time. It's more things like high top speeds that are useless except at a track.
  - gsnedders 13y ago
    I dunno — I see the Model S as far less of a fashion statement than most other comparably priced cars. If one wishes to buy an electric car (e.g., because you believe in reducing pollution, because of the lower cost of running due to tax exemptions, etc.) and needs a range of over 200 miles, there are two options: the Venturi Fétish and the Tesla Model S (in some places the tax exemptions do not apply to hybrids, so if you need the range, that's it). I also wouldn't write off operating costs as a reason — certainly, those who can afford them can likely afford the operating costs of similarly priced ICE cars, but my experience is those with a greater amount of money tend to be more frugal than those with slightly above average income. There's also the difference between wealth and income — purchase power for something like a car may well be done on the basis of wealth, while maintaining it done on income.
- nshepperd 13y ago
  > Honestly I could care less about Couldn't care less. Couldn't.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    That construction is on a par with using "literally" to mean "figuratively" (surprisingly common), or "he doesn't know s * * t" when obviously the speaker means "he does know s * * t."
_JamesA_ 13y ago
cache != cachet

umsm 13y ago

I think these comparisons are useful. You are comparing cars that don't really compete, yet the Tesla matches or outperforms them. I personally like to know that it's faster than X or better equipped than Y or drives better than Z.

sliverstorm 13y ago
So you would also be very interested in a shootout between a Tesla and a dirt bike? They don't compete, but if the Tesla can go round a *pavement track better, I guess that's useful?
- umsm 13y ago
  Please re-read my original comment. I did say cars. I wouldn't buy an AM because I need a 4 door sedan for my lifestyle. Yet, isn't it useful to know that it is as refined as a high-end sports car?
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    I did say cars. Fine. So you'd be interested to see the Tesla compared to a WRC car, and you would find it useful to hear that the Tesla can pull higher g's on an asphalt skidpad and has a nicer interior? isn't it useful to know that it is as refined as a high-end sports car You got that out of this video? They barely even mention fit-and-finish. The main focus between the two is the acceleration comparison, which says zilch about refinement.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      "So you'd be interested to see the Tesla compared to a WRC car, and you would find it useful to hear that the Tesla can pull higher g's on an asphalt skidpad and has a nicer interior?" Sure, I'd read that article. Throw the Tesla onto a dirt track too, I'd read that as well. Hell, I want to know if it can go upside-down in a sewer tunnel. I don't see the problem here.

nbakshi 13y ago

Automobile did a comparison with BMW M5. Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvHTN0Yi1t4

lambdasquirrel 13y ago

But the Rapide does try to tailor to the sporty crowd. It is marketed as such. It is significantly lighter than rivals like the various Bentley and the Rolls Royce four-doors, and it was tested on the Nordschleife. It performs favorably compared to the BMW M5, and people have compared the two. I don't think it's fair to compare the Model S with the M3. The M3 (well, the M4) aims to be a compact executive. In terms of wheelbase, the Model S is much closer to the M5 and the Rapide.

rdl 13y ago

I personally cross-shop the Tesla Model S and the Audi S7. A future Model S AWD and an Audi A7/S7 TDI would be an even more direct comparison. They price out (loaded) to within $5k, if you take into account the $2500 federal tax credit and sales tax exemption in WA. The depreciation on a diesel and on a Tesla are probably comparable. Tesla would be clear savings on fuel costs, maintenance, and probably would have more curb appeal at least in SFBA. I'd probably take the Audi A7 3.0 TDI if I needed AWD today. What I really want is the Tesla S4/S5 or 335is-equivalent, though.

r00fus 13y ago
> What I really want is the Tesla S4/S5 or 335is-equivalent, though. Sorry, I don't think the tech is there. Either the range would suffer (due to more compact frame allowing for fewer cells safely) or the power would be gimped (to allow for lower overall battery capacity). Electric cars are competing with the entire petroleum-fuel supply chain, and as such, are fighting a david vs. goliath battle. That Tesla does this, has won consistently, and wins with style is why their stock is up 500% over the past year. Of course, they've picked their battles, and fighting the S4 or 3 series isn't one of those they're ready to fight (yet). Maybe, like Apple, they never will (Apple ceded the enthusiast/gaming desktop market years ago).
- rdl 13y ago
  I guess the question is how much they'd gain in acceleration/performance (and thus be able to give up on battery capacity) by making the overall vehicle smaller and (ex-battery) 200-300 pounds lighter, vs. how much space for battery they'd give up. I don't mind if the S4-replacement costs $60-80k (loaded) vs. $80-100k for a Model S. I'd also take a car which had the same general size and chassis as the Model S but with a larger, more-secure trunk at the cost of seating capacity. My dream car is a 2-seat coupe with a trunk the size of a compact pickup truck bed.
  - gaadd33 13y ago
    Like a Porsche 928?

snambi 13y ago

Hey, its just a comparison. Nothing wrong with it. Especially TESLA is a new type of car. Such comparisons make much more sense in terms of buyer awareness.