6 ms·

Disruptive Innovation vs. Harvard: Who Will Win?

40 points by henrik_w 13y ago

terabytest 13y ago
It's probably just me, but I cringe a little bit whenever I read the word "disruption".
- dylangs1030 13y ago
  It's not just you.
  - onedev 13y ago
    Let's not give "Innovation" a free pass here. Put both words together and you have something worth letting out a nice big SIGH for.
- subsystem 13y ago
  Especially in light of recent events where we definitely learned that, while some of the players might have changed, the power structure is still the same.
gulfie 13y ago
My 32 Billion dollar guess is Harvard. http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2012/11/27/10-colleges-with-largest-financial-endowments http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list... Harvard students? Faculty? huh? Why would $32 Billion USD care about that?
kenster07 13y ago
"No one ultimately cares all that much whether their daughter has a Coke or a Pepsi, do they? But they would do nearly anything to send her to an elite university." Anyone else confused by this comparison in the opener?
- colmvp 13y ago
  Yeah it's a little odd to compare them considering universities vary so widely from one another in a variety of facets whereas Coke and Pepsi have significant similarities. Furthermore, the implications of which university one attends is vastly different than choosing a soft drink.
- objclxt 13y ago
  ...yes. I think it sort of undermines his point. Because people might not care about drinking Coke or Pepsi, but lots of people would pick a brand name cola above a generic one. The same with colleges: you could go to Harvard, Yale, Penn, MIT...one of dozens of highly respected colleges and have a fantastic time. Like Coke and Pepsi, it's much of a muchness. But the next tier down - the 'generic colas' of university education, if you will - that's a little different. Not bad, per se - just different.
- voyou 13y ago
  The analogy doesn't really help the argument, either. "Here are two companies that are massively successful primarily because of branding. So, clearly, the even more significant branding of higher education will be unsuccessful."
objclxt 13y ago
He assumes that you should go to Harvard because you want to get a good job and leave with the best qualifications. This is not why you should go to Harvard. Harry Lewis (who has an excellent blog that's well worth reading if you're into higher ed[0]) has said in the past that students should really be going to Harvard to become better people. Delivering education at scale is not in itself hard. Coursera, Udacity, Khan, edX...lots of people are making a very good go at it. Delivering the personal and social development that comes with a college education - that's the hard part. That's I have to disagree with Ferreira when he says: > Even Harvard could admit five totally different freshman classes every year from the United States alone without compromising its standards Technically, this is probably true. The majority of people applying to Harvard are more than qualified on paper (I've interviewed enough of them!). But a college education is so, so much more than just taking classes and getting good grades. It is about developing as a person, finding yourself. Doing that online: that's a very, very hard problem. The funny thing is that Harvard already is making significant progress in the six areas Ferreira has identified (...edX, for example, a self governing body that uses the Harvard brand to further internet learning). The difference is that many faculty at Harvard understand that college is not, in itself, all about the lectures and grades. [0]:http://harry-lewis.blogspot.com http://harry-lewis.blogspot.com - Harry Lewis also has some excellent thoughts on why Harvard doesn't, as Ferreira suggests, offshoot campuses into rich countries.
- sanderjd 13y ago
  Hmmm. I really like your ideas, but unfortunately I don't think the system you describe is the system Harvard is at the top of. I think it is at the top of the system where the goal is to have strong qualifications and get many incredible opportunities throughout life (not just a first job). It may also be a good place to become a better person, but ranking that seems much murkier to me. I can think of lots of things that could arguably be higher in the become-a-better-person rankings than going to Harvard or, indeed, any university.
  - objclxt 13y ago
    You're right - I'm simplifying considerably. College is not for everyone, and there are many positive life-changing things one can do that don't involve going to university. The thing is that even at universities like Harvard, Oxford, MIT, etc there's considerable debate over what the university itself should be doing. The Harvard Business School, for example, is culturally (and geographically) a world apart from the undergraduate programme. Trying to distill what a university should become is hard, because there are so many stakeholders with vastly differing views.
auggierose 13y ago
In the technical sciences Germany has arguably very competitive universities, but there is no University fetishism like in the US. Nobody really cares in Germany about what University you went to. So basically, thats where the American / UK system will be headed as well.
- taude 13y ago
  I'd say University fetishism is localized to certain areas of the US, too. I've lived on both the west coast (Seattle, San Diego, Colorado) and east coast (Boston). In Boston, where you go to school matters....a lot, likely due to Harvard and MIT being here, along with several other universities. When I lived on the west coast, it didn't matter nearly as much and I felt that I had an easier time getting hired at certain types of jobs.
  - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    I second that. From first-hand experience, Massachusetts is the only place where people look down on a CS degree from UMass Amherst, for instance.
- slurry 13y ago
  German universities aren't very good at attracting foreign students and they tend to underperform in international rankings (in large part due to the previous point). I don't think German universoties are an example anyone wants to follow.
  - Atropos 13y ago
    With regards to attracting international students, the effect of English being the language of academia cannot be overstated. If you compare Germany with countries like France, Spain, Italy, Russia, Japan or South-Korea, I would rather doubt that it attracts significantly less foreign students.
  - huherto 13y ago
    I don't doubt that German Universities are very very good. But learning German is a very big added cost for most prospective students in the world.
b1daly 13y ago
While it does seem likely that a disruption in education is immanent, the article doesn't ring true. I can't quite put my finger on it but it has something to do with assuming that the institutions of the elite (businesses, government, colleges) are driven by meritocratic impulse primarily. This leaves out elements of human motivation like tribalism, pure status seeking, creative impulse, absurdism...there is a veritable smorgasbord of human attributes that defy quantification.
bayesianhorse 13y ago
Most people fail to realize that the elite university phenomenon and the absurd tuition fees are not so much about producing qualified graduates but about "costly signals" in game theoretic sense. When "elite" businesses like Goldman Sachs filter for these signals they are playing a very safe game and it works for them. They might be able to afford overlooking other candidates. Other businesses often certainly can't. I also have to question if this costly signalling game is beneficial for the society both in human and economic terms. From the major online course providers I haven't seen a lot of effort disrupting the game.
- Pxtl 13y ago
  > I also have to question if this costly signalling game is beneficial for the society both in human and economic terms. I don't think there is any question. The "elite" university phenomenon is about class, not academics.
- superuser2 13y ago
  This would make sense if elite education was actually costly, but it's not. Run http://npc.fas.harvard.edu/ http://npc.fas.harvard.edu/ for a middle-class family.
  - huherto 13y ago
    There is no option for Mexico. It is certainly not in central or south america.
    - superuser2 13y ago
      There's SOUTH AMERICA and CENTRAL AMERICA at the bottom of the dropdown. Actually cheaper than for US students.
      - huherto 13y ago
        The issue is that Mexico is not in South or Central America. México is located in North America. http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Americas/Mexico.html http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Americas/Mexico... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America
Pxtl 13y ago
"Measuring" educational products is functionally impossible. The educational academic field has been struggling with this for over a century... the body of knowledge suffers from the same kind of constant churn and controversy and inability to make any forward progress that you see in management. Fads come and go and teachers keep going back to the same methods that have always been used. While I expect that online universities can make some forward progress since they're hungrier, I don't think they'll be able to quantify outcomes well enough to overcome the brand power of the big educational institutions in the eyes of a skeptical market.
- tinkerdol 13y ago
  >"Measuring" educational products is functionally impossible. Why? I'd agree it would be difficult, but "impossible?" For instance, I could imagine creating tests to measure a student's competencies in things such as engineering, programming, or foreign languages pretty easily. Then once you measure a student's competence at the beginning and ending of a curriculum, you have your measurement of the educational product. Not that standardized testing is the answer, or easy for any subject... but it's an example. >teachers keep going back to the same methods that have always been used. Maybe if they either don't care or if they don't see a reason to change. I'm helping teach a course starting next month, "Technical English" (for non-native speakers), and am always looking for ways to improve on what I did last year. In fact, if anyone out there would like to talk to my class about your job over skype one day, I will integrate that into my curriculum right now. (You could add "guest lecturer" to your resume as a possible incentive).
- hershel 13y ago
  The author of this article is the founder of knewton, and educational software company for k-12. Their software optimizes questions and educational material for student based on measuring how fat the students are answering questions, in what types of questions they are wrong, etc. They are deployed in some schools , and they show a big improvement for student results. So i'm not so sure measuring is "functionally impossible"
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

40 points by henrik_w 13y ago

terabytest 13y ago

It's probably just me, but I cringe a little bit whenever I read the word "disruption".

dylangs1030 13y ago
It's not just you.
- onedev 13y ago
  Let's not give "Innovation" a free pass here. Put both words together and you have something worth letting out a nice big SIGH for.
subsystem 13y ago
Especially in light of recent events where we definitely learned that, while some of the players might have changed, the power structure is still the same.

gulfie 13y ago

My 32 Billion dollar guess is Harvard. http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2012/11/27/10-colleges-with-largest-financial-endowments http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list... Harvard students? Faculty? huh? Why would $32 Billion USD care about that?

kenster07 13y ago

"No one ultimately cares all that much whether their daughter has a Coke or a Pepsi, do they? But they would do nearly anything to send her to an elite university." Anyone else confused by this comparison in the opener?

colmvp 13y ago
Yeah it's a little odd to compare them considering universities vary so widely from one another in a variety of facets whereas Coke and Pepsi have significant similarities. Furthermore, the implications of which university one attends is vastly different than choosing a soft drink.
objclxt 13y ago
...yes. I think it sort of undermines his point. Because people might not care about drinking Coke or Pepsi, but lots of people would pick a brand name cola above a generic one. The same with colleges: you could go to Harvard, Yale, Penn, MIT...one of dozens of highly respected colleges and have a fantastic time. Like Coke and Pepsi, it's much of a muchness. But the next tier down - the 'generic colas' of university education, if you will - that's a little different. Not bad, per se - just different.
voyou 13y ago
The analogy doesn't really help the argument, either. "Here are two companies that are massively successful primarily because of branding. So, clearly, the even more significant branding of higher education will be unsuccessful."

objclxt 13y ago

He assumes that you should go to Harvard because you want to get a good job and leave with the best qualifications. This is not why you should go to Harvard. Harry Lewis (who has an excellent blog that's well worth reading if you're into higher ed[0]) has said in the past that students should really be going to Harvard to become better people. Delivering education at scale is not in itself hard. Coursera, Udacity, Khan, edX...lots of people are making a very good go at it. Delivering the personal and social development that comes with a college education - that's the hard part. That's I have to disagree with Ferreira when he says: > Even Harvard could admit five totally different freshman classes every year from the United States alone without compromising its standards Technically, this is probably true. The majority of people applying to Harvard are more than qualified on paper (I've interviewed enough of them!). But a college education is so, so much more than just taking classes and getting good grades. It is about developing as a person, finding yourself. Doing that online: that's a very, very hard problem. The funny thing is that Harvard already is making significant progress in the six areas Ferreira has identified (...edX, for example, a self governing body that uses the Harvard brand to further internet learning). The difference is that many faculty at Harvard understand that college is not, in itself, all about the lectures and grades. [0]:http://harry-lewis.blogspot.com http://harry-lewis.blogspot.com - Harry Lewis also has some excellent thoughts on why Harvard doesn't, as Ferreira suggests, offshoot campuses into rich countries.

sanderjd 13y ago
Hmmm. I really like your ideas, but unfortunately I don't think the system you describe is the system Harvard is at the top of. I think it is at the top of the system where the goal is to have strong qualifications and get many incredible opportunities throughout life (not just a first job). It may also be a good place to become a better person, but ranking that seems much murkier to me. I can think of lots of things that could arguably be higher in the become-a-better-person rankings than going to Harvard or, indeed, any university.
- objclxt 13y ago
  You're right - I'm simplifying considerably. College is not for everyone, and there are many positive life-changing things one can do that don't involve going to university. The thing is that even at universities like Harvard, Oxford, MIT, etc there's considerable debate over what the university itself should be doing. The Harvard Business School, for example, is culturally (and geographically) a world apart from the undergraduate programme. Trying to distill what a university should become is hard, because there are so many stakeholders with vastly differing views.

auggierose 13y ago

In the technical sciences Germany has arguably very competitive universities, but there is no University fetishism like in the US. Nobody really cares in Germany about what University you went to. So basically, thats where the American / UK system will be headed as well.

taude 13y ago
I'd say University fetishism is localized to certain areas of the US, too. I've lived on both the west coast (Seattle, San Diego, Colorado) and east coast (Boston). In Boston, where you go to school matters....a lot, likely due to Harvard and MIT being here, along with several other universities. When I lived on the west coast, it didn't matter nearly as much and I felt that I had an easier time getting hired at certain types of jobs.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  I second that. From first-hand experience, Massachusetts is the only place where people look down on a CS degree from UMass Amherst, for instance.
slurry 13y ago
German universities aren't very good at attracting foreign students and they tend to underperform in international rankings (in large part due to the previous point). I don't think German universoties are an example anyone wants to follow.
- Atropos 13y ago
  With regards to attracting international students, the effect of English being the language of academia cannot be overstated. If you compare Germany with countries like France, Spain, Italy, Russia, Japan or South-Korea, I would rather doubt that it attracts significantly less foreign students.
- huherto 13y ago
  I don't doubt that German Universities are very very good. But learning German is a very big added cost for most prospective students in the world.

b1daly 13y ago

While it does seem likely that a disruption in education is immanent, the article doesn't ring true. I can't quite put my finger on it but it has something to do with assuming that the institutions of the elite (businesses, government, colleges) are driven by meritocratic impulse primarily. This leaves out elements of human motivation like tribalism, pure status seeking, creative impulse, absurdism...there is a veritable smorgasbord of human attributes that defy quantification.

bayesianhorse 13y ago

Most people fail to realize that the elite university phenomenon and the absurd tuition fees are not so much about producing qualified graduates but about "costly signals" in game theoretic sense. When "elite" businesses like Goldman Sachs filter for these signals they are playing a very safe game and it works for them. They might be able to afford overlooking other candidates. Other businesses often certainly can't. I also have to question if this costly signalling game is beneficial for the society both in human and economic terms. From the major online course providers I haven't seen a lot of effort disrupting the game.

Pxtl 13y ago
> I also have to question if this costly signalling game is beneficial for the society both in human and economic terms. I don't think there is any question. The "elite" university phenomenon is about class, not academics.
superuser2 13y ago
This would make sense if elite education was actually costly, but it's not. Run http://npc.fas.harvard.edu/ http://npc.fas.harvard.edu/ for a middle-class family.
- huherto 13y ago
  There is no option for Mexico. It is certainly not in central or south america.
  - superuser2 13y ago
    There's SOUTH AMERICA and CENTRAL AMERICA at the bottom of the dropdown. Actually cheaper than for US students.
    - huherto 13y ago
      The issue is that Mexico is not in South or Central America. México is located in North America. http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Americas/Mexico.html http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Americas/Mexico... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America

Pxtl 13y ago

"Measuring" educational products is functionally impossible. The educational academic field has been struggling with this for over a century... the body of knowledge suffers from the same kind of constant churn and controversy and inability to make any forward progress that you see in management. Fads come and go and teachers keep going back to the same methods that have always been used. While I expect that online universities can make some forward progress since they're hungrier, I don't think they'll be able to quantify outcomes well enough to overcome the brand power of the big educational institutions in the eyes of a skeptical market.

tinkerdol 13y ago
>"Measuring" educational products is functionally impossible. Why? I'd agree it would be difficult, but "impossible?" For instance, I could imagine creating tests to measure a student's competencies in things such as engineering, programming, or foreign languages pretty easily. Then once you measure a student's competence at the beginning and ending of a curriculum, you have your measurement of the educational product. Not that standardized testing is the answer, or easy for any subject... but it's an example. >teachers keep going back to the same methods that have always been used. Maybe if they either don't care or if they don't see a reason to change. I'm helping teach a course starting next month, "Technical English" (for non-native speakers), and am always looking for ways to improve on what I did last year. In fact, if anyone out there would like to talk to my class about your job over skype one day, I will integrate that into my curriculum right now. (You could add "guest lecturer" to your resume as a possible incentive).
hershel 13y ago
The author of this article is the founder of knewton, and educational software company for k-12. Their software optimizes questions and educational material for student based on measuring how fat the students are answering questions, in what types of questions they are wrong, etc. They are deployed in some schools , and they show a big improvement for student results. So i'm not so sure measuring is "functionally impossible"

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]