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How can you compare corporate greed to union greed? The best paid union workers were autoworkers and longshore workers, and the companies they worked for were

How can you compare corporate greed to union greed? The best paid union workers were autoworkers and longshore workers, and the companies they worked for were still huge and profitable. So as "greedy" as these well paid workers were (and I mean "were," because autoworkers make a lot less today) they weren't greedy enough to destroy the company. If it weren't for this so-called "greed" there wouldn't have been a middle class at all. And now that unions are shrinking to almost irrelevance, the middle class is vanishing. The old attitude of companies holding onto workers was created by unions making demands. Now that unions are few, and in many sectors, were never present, the "fend for yourself" at-will contract is the standard. The unions made those "good old days". The labor strife of the 20s and 30s set the conditions for the middle class of the 50s and 60s.

jmspring 13y ago
By greed, I mean the failure of unions to adapt. They relied wholly on seniority even when senior members became settled and were no longer contributing as they should. Seniority as the sole measure of contribution was a huge hit to how unions were perceived -- be it autoworkers, teachers, etc. This is where I mean greed comes in. A refusal to self evaluate what was working and what wasn't.
- te_chris 13y ago
  Your use of seniority seems like a straw man to distract from the fact that unions have faced an unprecedented corporate and political offensive in the last 40 years that has no desire to compromise and is only intent on destroying any fragment of organised labour. To blame senior union officials for the decline of the unions is to miss the point entirely. Yes they were a contributing factor, but certainly not the main cause.
  - jmspring 13y ago
    Not a strawman at all...teachers unions are all about seniority over effectiveness and will fight tooth and nail accordingly. Many other unions are similar. I agree to the policy of public bargaining, but individual members should be subjected to measurements of their effectiveness. Tenure based on the sake of time (only) should not have equal weight to merit within the union structure. I say this as a product of public education and having many wonderful teachers, but saw younger ones forced out where older were tenured in and safe but not effective. I can't speak to other unions which I did not experience. The unions helped build the middle class in this country. The apprentice/journeyman/master levels within the trades is a great measure of skill and advancement, but regardless of trade (metal working, teaching, programming, etc) your tenure should be one component of your measure, but not the sole measure. Do you continue to learn? Do you teach? Are you advancing the best interests of the group? There is more than "oh, I've been here longer than you". This is what I mean when I talk greed and seniority. Yes, unions have faced an offensive, but their insular nature has also harmed them just as much as the outside offensives.
sliverstorm 13y ago
The best paid union workers were autoworkers and longshore workers, and the companies they worked for were still huge and profitable Yeah, until they had to start paying off the rest of their obligations, namely pensions.
- jmspring 13y ago
  Was that the fault of the unions or the companies employing them? Seems like the bulk have been companies underfunding their obligations. This particular trait was often coupled with many municipalities, including most of the state of California, agreeing to pension obligations that made little sense during fat times and were worse when things started tanking.

jmspring 13y ago

By greed, I mean the failure of unions to adapt. They relied wholly on seniority even when senior members became settled and were no longer contributing as they should. Seniority as the sole measure of contribution was a huge hit to how unions were perceived -- be it autoworkers, teachers, etc. This is where I mean greed comes in. A refusal to self evaluate what was working and what wasn't.

te_chris 13y ago
Your use of seniority seems like a straw man to distract from the fact that unions have faced an unprecedented corporate and political offensive in the last 40 years that has no desire to compromise and is only intent on destroying any fragment of organised labour. To blame senior union officials for the decline of the unions is to miss the point entirely. Yes they were a contributing factor, but certainly not the main cause.
- jmspring 13y ago
  Not a strawman at all...teachers unions are all about seniority over effectiveness and will fight tooth and nail accordingly. Many other unions are similar. I agree to the policy of public bargaining, but individual members should be subjected to measurements of their effectiveness. Tenure based on the sake of time (only) should not have equal weight to merit within the union structure. I say this as a product of public education and having many wonderful teachers, but saw younger ones forced out where older were tenured in and safe but not effective. I can't speak to other unions which I did not experience. The unions helped build the middle class in this country. The apprentice/journeyman/master levels within the trades is a great measure of skill and advancement, but regardless of trade (metal working, teaching, programming, etc) your tenure should be one component of your measure, but not the sole measure. Do you continue to learn? Do you teach? Are you advancing the best interests of the group? There is more than "oh, I've been here longer than you". This is what I mean when I talk greed and seniority. Yes, unions have faced an offensive, but their insular nature has also harmed them just as much as the outside offensives.

sliverstorm 13y ago

The best paid union workers were autoworkers and longshore workers, and the companies they worked for were still huge and profitable Yeah, until they had to start paying off the rest of their obligations, namely pensions.

jmspring 13y ago
Was that the fault of the unions or the companies employing them? Seems like the bulk have been companies underfunding their obligations. This particular trait was often coupled with many municipalities, including most of the state of California, agreeing to pension obligations that made little sense during fat times and were worse when things started tanking.