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All of your examples start from the comic. The rest of the discussion starts with PA's response to their critics. True, because I don't think it's logical to d

All of your examples start from the comic. The rest of the discussion starts with PA's response to their critics. True, because I don't think it's logical to divorce the content of the comic from PA's reaction to criticisms of the comic. The content of the comic matters when evaluating the veracity of the criticism. If the criticisms are evaluated as invalid it reframes questionable actions like poking fun at critics and printing dickwolf t-shirts. I agree that the comic isn't particularly sexist. It is not sexist in any way. If you disagree, please elaborate. When he says, on the one hand, "We have worked very hard to make PAX a safe place," and then, on the other hand, says he regrets not selling rape joke t-shirts that specifically were released to antagonize his critics (the ones he was making the safe place for). What's up with that? PAX is an event that takes place in the real world in an environment (tech event) that has often seen women objectified and harassed; working to minimize objectification and harassment has no relationship to printing dickwolf t-shirts. Dickwolf t-shirts do not objectify women. Dickwolf t-shirts do not harass or encourage harassment of women. Women are not made unsafe by the comic or the selling of t-shirts based on the comic. Not all women agree that dickwolf shirts merit feeling threatened. If one feels threatened by a dickwolf t-shirt that's one's own prerogative. Yes, the t-shirts were designed to make fun of the critics but nothing is wrong with that if you disagree with the critic's assessment of the work. I also think there's a clear difference between PA selling the shirt and Wired writing a reaction piece. Wired didn't post a big picture of a dickwolf and put ads on it. They're not profiting from a rape joke directly Ok, I agree that selling shirts about the comic is not the same as linkbaiting for page-views, but my point is still the same; PA was "profiting from a rape joke" the moment the comic was posted, so if there is no problem profiting from the original comic, I fail to see why it's wrong to profit from the sale of t-shirts based on the comic. Either the comic is wrong and the merch is also wrong by extension or the comic is not wrong and the shirt is just a stupid shirt.

drhayes9 13y ago
It's been a while and I don't know if you'll come back, but here goes... It is not sexist in any way. If you disagree, please elaborate. I know many women who don't find rape amusing. Most ugly rape jokes that I've seen (popular rape jokes? anyway...) are made by men. The content of the comic matters when evaluating the veracity of the criticism. This is our central disagreement, then. The original work could have been made in ignorance and been excusable. But some of Penny Arcade's own fans said, "Hey guys, can you not make light of the fact that some people actually are raped to sleep every night?" And in the face of those revelations by real people they decided to have a laugh. Their own fans exposed some vulnerability by admitting these feelings and the PA guys stomped all over them. They're just being bullies. Additionally, the content itself matters less than its audience's reactions. This isn't some lunatic fringe pulling meaning out of nowhere, this is a demographic of people that PA has largely tried to defend through their policies at PAX. Except here, where they made fun of them when they were down. The fall-out from this stretched on for about a year. Krahulik, via Twitter, demeaned the concept of triggers and, basically, denied that what these people were feeling was real. Dickwolf t-shirts do not harass or encourage harassment of women. This statement makes no sense. When women respond to a rape joke by saying, "Please don't say that," and you print a t-shirt in response to their criticism that depicts a (fantasy) rapist... how does that not encourage harassment? How does that follow in your thinking? if you disagree with the critic's assessment of the work Which Krahulik himself does not: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification Here's Krahulik's own words from that page: > I regret the follow up strip, I regret making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret being such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset. When you say Women are not made unsafe by the comic of the selling of t-shirts based on the comic it tells me that you don't know what it is to feel unsafe or be a woman. I've read a lot of first-hand accounts of women saying they felt unsafe in a crowd of men cheering for rape. I'm gonna put a lid of this one on my side. Thanks for the level-headed discussion, though, much appreciated -- especially because this shit makes me jump up and down.
- vectorpush 13y ago
  I know many women who don't find rape amusing. So what? How is that sexist? I know many black Americans who don't find slavery amusing, does that make the comic racist too? Of course not, because the comic contains absolutely nothing in the way of allusions to race from any conceivable interpretation, the same is true of sex. Most ugly rape jokes that I've seen (popular rape jokes? anyway...) are made by men. Most popular comedians are men, whether you chalk that up to a sexist society or not, an individual's joke doesn't become sexist just because the joke is mostly made by men, I think it's pretty obvious that all sorts of clearly non-sexist jokes fall into the category of "mostly made by men". I think, at a minimum, the intellectually honest way to judge a joke as sexist is if it's made at the expense of an individuals's sex (or at least makes any mention of or allusion to sex without consideration for women as a protected class). Anyone can be raped, in fact, male prisoners being raped (as is the case in the comic) is a very common trope. The comic is just not sexist at all, period. Also, what's with the "ugly" qualifier? Are some "rape jokes" ugly and others not? some of Penny Arcade's own fans said, "Hey guys, can you not make light of the fact that some people actually are raped to sleep every night?" And in the face of those revelations by real people they decided to have a laugh. That's pretty a revisionist version of events. A shit-storm of vitriol (on both sides) erupted over this comic, PA wasn't given a kind suggestion by the community, they were flamed as sexist rape culture purveyors straight out of the gate, they reacted by doubling down in defense of the comic, indeed poorly, but with earnest belief in the intellectual honesty of their argument: nothing is wrong with the comic. Additionally, the content itself matters less than its audience's reactions. That makes zero sense. Facts matter, especially when people are whipped up into a frenzy over the supposed nature of the facts. This isn't some lunatic fringe pulling meaning out of nowhere The segment of the audience who didn't favor the comic are not a lunatic fringe, they're just totally wrong about the comic by all objective measure. They were pulling meaning out of nowhere because we've already established that the comic in no way alludes to violence against women, period. The critics don't own the word rape. Which Krahulik himself does not: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification > I regret the follow up strip, I regret making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret being such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset. Yes, he regrets all those things (except the original comic), that doesn't mean he agrees with the critics (he clearly doesn't). When you say Women are not made unsafe by the selling of t-shirts based on the comic it tells me that you don't know what it is to feel unsafe or be a woman. That's a considerably presumptuous and condescending statement. You'd feel pretty stupid right now if I told you that I actually was a woman (i'm not), but just because I hold certain beliefs (i.e. "don't be a dickwolf" printed on a t-shirt is not threatening) you presume that I couldn't possibly know what it's like to be a woman because of course we should reasonably expect that a normal woman would feel threatened by a passive line of text ironed onto a shirt. I mean, look at the first comment on the article, a female rape survivor who gasp doesn't read any threatening connotation into dickwolves. Once again, women are not made unsafe by the t-shirt. Wearing a t-shirt doesn't make one a rapist, it doesn't encourage rape, it doesn't support rape, neither the shirt nor the comic depict an assault of any kind, and women in particular have a dubious relationship to the comic in any capacity (since it was a white male prisoner who alluded to being raped by a Dickwolf) I've read a lot of first-hand accounts of women saying they felt unsafe in a crowd of men cheering for rape. Yes, a crowd of men cheering for rape would be quite scary... except that never actually happened and you completely undermine your credibility when you repeat such falsehoods as truth. They cheered because they support the artist, the comic, and the perceived push-back against capitulation to pressure that pulling the merch represented. To say that those men cheered for rape is about as dishonest as it gets and it's that type of rhetoric that sends otherwise open-minded men into defense mode. Anyway. Agree to disagree. Glad we kept it civil :).

drhayes9 13y ago

It's been a while and I don't know if you'll come back, but here goes... It is not sexist in any way. If you disagree, please elaborate. I know many women who don't find rape amusing. Most ugly rape jokes that I've seen (popular rape jokes? anyway...) are made by men. The content of the comic matters when evaluating the veracity of the criticism. This is our central disagreement, then. The original work could have been made in ignorance and been excusable. But some of Penny Arcade's own fans said, "Hey guys, can you not make light of the fact that some people actually are raped to sleep every night?" And in the face of those revelations by real people they decided to have a laugh. Their own fans exposed some vulnerability by admitting these feelings and the PA guys stomped all over them. They're just being bullies. Additionally, the content itself matters less than its audience's reactions. This isn't some lunatic fringe pulling meaning out of nowhere, this is a demographic of people that PA has largely tried to defend through their policies at PAX. Except here, where they made fun of them when they were down. The fall-out from this stretched on for about a year. Krahulik, via Twitter, demeaned the concept of triggers and, basically, denied that what these people were feeling was real. Dickwolf t-shirts do not harass or encourage harassment of women. This statement makes no sense. When women respond to a rape joke by saying, "Please don't say that," and you print a t-shirt in response to their criticism that depicts a (fantasy) rapist... how does that not encourage harassment? How does that follow in your thinking? if you disagree with the critic's assessment of the work Which Krahulik himself does not: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification Here's Krahulik's own words from that page: > I regret the follow up strip, I regret making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret being such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset. When you say Women are not made unsafe by the comic of the selling of t-shirts based on the comic it tells me that you don't know what it is to feel unsafe or be a woman. I've read a lot of first-hand accounts of women saying they felt unsafe in a crowd of men cheering for rape. I'm gonna put a lid of this one on my side. Thanks for the level-headed discussion, though, much appreciated -- especially because this shit makes me jump up and down.

vectorpush 13y ago
I know many women who don't find rape amusing. So what? How is that sexist? I know many black Americans who don't find slavery amusing, does that make the comic racist too? Of course not, because the comic contains absolutely nothing in the way of allusions to race from any conceivable interpretation, the same is true of sex. Most ugly rape jokes that I've seen (popular rape jokes? anyway...) are made by men. Most popular comedians are men, whether you chalk that up to a sexist society or not, an individual's joke doesn't become sexist just because the joke is mostly made by men, I think it's pretty obvious that all sorts of clearly non-sexist jokes fall into the category of "mostly made by men". I think, at a minimum, the intellectually honest way to judge a joke as sexist is if it's made at the expense of an individuals's sex (or at least makes any mention of or allusion to sex without consideration for women as a protected class). Anyone can be raped, in fact, male prisoners being raped (as is the case in the comic) is a very common trope. The comic is just not sexist at all, period. Also, what's with the "ugly" qualifier? Are some "rape jokes" ugly and others not? some of Penny Arcade's own fans said, "Hey guys, can you not make light of the fact that some people actually are raped to sleep every night?" And in the face of those revelations by real people they decided to have a laugh. That's pretty a revisionist version of events. A shit-storm of vitriol (on both sides) erupted over this comic, PA wasn't given a kind suggestion by the community, they were flamed as sexist rape culture purveyors straight out of the gate, they reacted by doubling down in defense of the comic, indeed poorly, but with earnest belief in the intellectual honesty of their argument: nothing is wrong with the comic. Additionally, the content itself matters less than its audience's reactions. That makes zero sense. Facts matter, especially when people are whipped up into a frenzy over the supposed nature of the facts. This isn't some lunatic fringe pulling meaning out of nowhere The segment of the audience who didn't favor the comic are not a lunatic fringe, they're just totally wrong about the comic by all objective measure. They were pulling meaning out of nowhere because we've already established that the comic in no way alludes to violence against women, period. The critics don't own the word rape. Which Krahulik himself does not: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification > I regret the follow up strip, I regret making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret being such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset. Yes, he regrets all those things (except the original comic), that doesn't mean he agrees with the critics (he clearly doesn't). When you say Women are not made unsafe by the selling of t-shirts based on the comic it tells me that you don't know what it is to feel unsafe or be a woman. That's a considerably presumptuous and condescending statement. You'd feel pretty stupid right now if I told you that I actually was a woman (i'm not), but just because I hold certain beliefs (i.e. "don't be a dickwolf" printed on a t-shirt is not threatening) you presume that I couldn't possibly know what it's like to be a woman because of course we should reasonably expect that a normal woman would feel threatened by a passive line of text ironed onto a shirt. I mean, look at the first comment on the article, a female rape survivor who gasp doesn't read any threatening connotation into dickwolves. Once again, women are not made unsafe by the t-shirt. Wearing a t-shirt doesn't make one a rapist, it doesn't encourage rape, it doesn't support rape, neither the shirt nor the comic depict an assault of any kind, and women in particular have a dubious relationship to the comic in any capacity (since it was a white male prisoner who alluded to being raped by a Dickwolf) I've read a lot of first-hand accounts of women saying they felt unsafe in a crowd of men cheering for rape. Yes, a crowd of men cheering for rape would be quite scary... except that never actually happened and you completely undermine your credibility when you repeat such falsehoods as truth. They cheered because they support the artist, the comic, and the perceived push-back against capitulation to pressure that pulling the merch represented. To say that those men cheered for rape is about as dishonest as it gets and it's that type of rhetoric that sends otherwise open-minded men into defense mode. Anyway. Agree to disagree. Glad we kept it civil :).