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"Threats against women are garden-variety Internet trolling and not motivated particularly by their gender." I am not saying this. Of course sexist trolling is

"Threats against women are garden-variety Internet trolling and not motivated particularly by their gender." I am not saying this. Of course sexist trolling is motivated by the gender of the victim, that's exactly how trolls operate, they deliberately attack pain points that are specific to their target and it is damaging whether they actually believe what they say or not. However, none of this is the fault of the comic authors. You seem to also be saying, "People only perceive sexism; it doesn't objectively exist." I am not saying this. You clearly didn't read my entire post. Sexism is a real problem as I clearly stated in my OP. Stated another way: if reasonable individuals can agree that the comic is not sexist, then it follows that the perception of the comic as sexist is merely a perception that the authors don't have an ethical obligation to recognize. I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm saying that PA authors shouldn't be held responsible for trolls harassing individuals they disagree with because there is a flavor of troll for every controversial topic and they will always spout the most disgusting hateful thing imaginable for the target audience. I blame them for profiting off of it Why? Do you blame the author of this post or any of other dozens of blogs that have profited off this controversy? If the comic wasn't sexist, I don't see the problem with selling merch based on the comic. Will some perceive "Dickwolf" merchandise as an attack on women? Yes, but that doesn't make it true. they were saying, "We don't think enough of their complaints to treat it seriously." I don't think they are wrong for this. As I stated in my OP, the comic does not invoke imagery of violence against women unless you believe that the literary use of the word 'rape' is inherently sexist. If you don't believe that use of the term rape is inherently sexist, it follows that you might not take accusations of sexism seriously. You can't evaluate these two components of the story in a vacuum. Your argument boils down to "well, there isn't anything actually sexist about the comic, but dismissing accusations of the comic as sexist is sexist". Sexism well and truly exists You're fighting against a straw-man.

drhayes9 13y ago
Nope, totally read your post. And then deleted my rather angry response because you've got a couple of good points; sorry to straw man you there. All of your examples start from the comic. The rest of the discussion starts with PA's response to their critics. I agree that the comic isn't particularly sexist. I disagree that PA isn't responsible for their community here. Even Krahulik himself thinks so[1]. When he says, on the one hand, "We have worked very hard to make PAX a safe place," and then, on the other hand, says he regrets not selling rape joke t-shirts that specifically were released to antagonize his critics (the ones he was making the safe place for). What's up with that? I think the t-shirt was purposefully created to make fun of people who thought the original comic was a big deal. Do you disagree? It's not about whether the original comic was sexist (I never said that, nor did Wired). I also think there's a clear difference between PA selling the shirt and Wired writing a reaction piece. Wired didn't post a big picture of a dickwolf and put ads on it. They're not profiting from a rape joke directly... like you would if you sold a picture of a dickwolf on a shirt. We might be talking past each other? [1]: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification
- vectorpush 13y ago
  All of your examples start from the comic. The rest of the discussion starts with PA's response to their critics. True, because I don't think it's logical to divorce the content of the comic from PA's reaction to criticisms of the comic. The content of the comic matters when evaluating the veracity of the criticism. If the criticisms are evaluated as invalid it reframes questionable actions like poking fun at critics and printing dickwolf t-shirts. I agree that the comic isn't particularly sexist. It is not sexist in any way. If you disagree, please elaborate. When he says, on the one hand, "We have worked very hard to make PAX a safe place," and then, on the other hand, says he regrets not selling rape joke t-shirts that specifically were released to antagonize his critics (the ones he was making the safe place for). What's up with that? PAX is an event that takes place in the real world in an environment (tech event) that has often seen women objectified and harassed; working to minimize objectification and harassment has no relationship to printing dickwolf t-shirts. Dickwolf t-shirts do not objectify women. Dickwolf t-shirts do not harass or encourage harassment of women. Women are not made unsafe by the comic or the selling of t-shirts based on the comic. Not all women agree that dickwolf shirts merit feeling threatened. If one feels threatened by a dickwolf t-shirt that's one's own prerogative. Yes, the t-shirts were designed to make fun of the critics but nothing is wrong with that if you disagree with the critic's assessment of the work. I also think there's a clear difference between PA selling the shirt and Wired writing a reaction piece. Wired didn't post a big picture of a dickwolf and put ads on it. They're not profiting from a rape joke directly Ok, I agree that selling shirts about the comic is not the same as linkbaiting for page-views, but my point is still the same; PA was "profiting from a rape joke" the moment the comic was posted, so if there is no problem profiting from the original comic, I fail to see why it's wrong to profit from the sale of t-shirts based on the comic. Either the comic is wrong and the merch is also wrong by extension or the comic is not wrong and the shirt is just a stupid shirt.
  - drhayes9 13y ago
    It's been a while and I don't know if you'll come back, but here goes... It is not sexist in any way. If you disagree, please elaborate. I know many women who don't find rape amusing. Most ugly rape jokes that I've seen (popular rape jokes? anyway...) are made by men. The content of the comic matters when evaluating the veracity of the criticism. This is our central disagreement, then. The original work could have been made in ignorance and been excusable. But some of Penny Arcade's own fans said, "Hey guys, can you not make light of the fact that some people actually are raped to sleep every night?" And in the face of those revelations by real people they decided to have a laugh. Their own fans exposed some vulnerability by admitting these feelings and the PA guys stomped all over them. They're just being bullies. Additionally, the content itself matters less than its audience's reactions. This isn't some lunatic fringe pulling meaning out of nowhere, this is a demographic of people that PA has largely tried to defend through their policies at PAX. Except here, where they made fun of them when they were down. The fall-out from this stretched on for about a year. Krahulik, via Twitter, demeaned the concept of triggers and, basically, denied that what these people were feeling was real. Dickwolf t-shirts do not harass or encourage harassment of women. This statement makes no sense. When women respond to a rape joke by saying, "Please don't say that," and you print a t-shirt in response to their criticism that depicts a (fantasy) rapist... how does that not encourage harassment? How does that follow in your thinking? if you disagree with the critic's assessment of the work Which Krahulik himself does not: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification Here's Krahulik's own words from that page: > I regret the follow up strip, I regret making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret being such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset. When you say Women are not made unsafe by the comic of the selling of t-shirts based on the comic it tells me that you don't know what it is to feel unsafe or be a woman. I've read a lot of first-hand accounts of women saying they felt unsafe in a crowd of men cheering for rape. I'm gonna put a lid of this one on my side. Thanks for the level-headed discussion, though, much appreciated -- especially because this shit makes me jump up and down.

drhayes9 13y ago

Nope, totally read your post. And then deleted my rather angry response because you've got a couple of good points; sorry to straw man you there. All of your examples start from the comic. The rest of the discussion starts with PA's response to their critics. I agree that the comic isn't particularly sexist. I disagree that PA isn't responsible for their community here. Even Krahulik himself thinks so[1]. When he says, on the one hand, "We have worked very hard to make PAX a safe place," and then, on the other hand, says he regrets not selling rape joke t-shirts that specifically were released to antagonize his critics (the ones he was making the safe place for). What's up with that? I think the t-shirt was purposefully created to make fun of people who thought the original comic was a big deal. Do you disagree? It's not about whether the original comic was sexist (I never said that, nor did Wired). I also think there's a clear difference between PA selling the shirt and Wired writing a reaction piece. Wired didn't post a big picture of a dickwolf and put ads on it. They're not profiting from a rape joke directly... like you would if you sold a picture of a dickwolf on a shirt. We might be talking past each other? [1]: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification

vectorpush 13y ago
All of your examples start from the comic. The rest of the discussion starts with PA's response to their critics. True, because I don't think it's logical to divorce the content of the comic from PA's reaction to criticisms of the comic. The content of the comic matters when evaluating the veracity of the criticism. If the criticisms are evaluated as invalid it reframes questionable actions like poking fun at critics and printing dickwolf t-shirts. I agree that the comic isn't particularly sexist. It is not sexist in any way. If you disagree, please elaborate. When he says, on the one hand, "We have worked very hard to make PAX a safe place," and then, on the other hand, says he regrets not selling rape joke t-shirts that specifically were released to antagonize his critics (the ones he was making the safe place for). What's up with that? PAX is an event that takes place in the real world in an environment (tech event) that has often seen women objectified and harassed; working to minimize objectification and harassment has no relationship to printing dickwolf t-shirts. Dickwolf t-shirts do not objectify women. Dickwolf t-shirts do not harass or encourage harassment of women. Women are not made unsafe by the comic or the selling of t-shirts based on the comic. Not all women agree that dickwolf shirts merit feeling threatened. If one feels threatened by a dickwolf t-shirt that's one's own prerogative. Yes, the t-shirts were designed to make fun of the critics but nothing is wrong with that if you disagree with the critic's assessment of the work. I also think there's a clear difference between PA selling the shirt and Wired writing a reaction piece. Wired didn't post a big picture of a dickwolf and put ads on it. They're not profiting from a rape joke directly Ok, I agree that selling shirts about the comic is not the same as linkbaiting for page-views, but my point is still the same; PA was "profiting from a rape joke" the moment the comic was posted, so if there is no problem profiting from the original comic, I fail to see why it's wrong to profit from the sale of t-shirts based on the comic. Either the comic is wrong and the merch is also wrong by extension or the comic is not wrong and the shirt is just a stupid shirt.
- drhayes9 13y ago
  It's been a while and I don't know if you'll come back, but here goes... It is not sexist in any way. If you disagree, please elaborate. I know many women who don't find rape amusing. Most ugly rape jokes that I've seen (popular rape jokes? anyway...) are made by men. The content of the comic matters when evaluating the veracity of the criticism. This is our central disagreement, then. The original work could have been made in ignorance and been excusable. But some of Penny Arcade's own fans said, "Hey guys, can you not make light of the fact that some people actually are raped to sleep every night?" And in the face of those revelations by real people they decided to have a laugh. Their own fans exposed some vulnerability by admitting these feelings and the PA guys stomped all over them. They're just being bullies. Additionally, the content itself matters less than its audience's reactions. This isn't some lunatic fringe pulling meaning out of nowhere, this is a demographic of people that PA has largely tried to defend through their policies at PAX. Except here, where they made fun of them when they were down. The fall-out from this stretched on for about a year. Krahulik, via Twitter, demeaned the concept of triggers and, basically, denied that what these people were feeling was real. Dickwolf t-shirts do not harass or encourage harassment of women. This statement makes no sense. When women respond to a rape joke by saying, "Please don't say that," and you print a t-shirt in response to their criticism that depicts a (fantasy) rapist... how does that not encourage harassment? How does that follow in your thinking? if you disagree with the critic's assessment of the work Which Krahulik himself does not: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification Here's Krahulik's own words from that page: > I regret the follow up strip, I regret making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret being such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset. When you say Women are not made unsafe by the comic of the selling of t-shirts based on the comic it tells me that you don't know what it is to feel unsafe or be a woman. I've read a lot of first-hand accounts of women saying they felt unsafe in a crowd of men cheering for rape. I'm gonna put a lid of this one on my side. Thanks for the level-headed discussion, though, much appreciated -- especially because this shit makes me jump up and down.