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> Any further push for 'free speech' there must come as a package with instilling a culture of rape... again, even if that's not how they mean for it to be perc

> Any further push for 'free speech' there must come as a package with instilling a culture of rape... again, even if that's not how they mean for it to be perceived, that doesn't change the reality of how it is being perceived. Instilling implies a real effect, not just a perception of intent. In other words, culture must become measurable more pro rape as a result for there to be real harm. I haven't seen the evidence of this anywhere: the only effect it has had as far as I can see is people who are against mentioning rape at all getting angry about their perception of it (not changing anything).

pemulis 13y ago
Would adding up the number of rape threats directed against his critics count as a measurement?
- bryze 13y ago
  Should public figures be held responsible for the actions of their fanatics?
  - danielweber 13y ago
    If they are on the Other Side from me, yes.
  - Aloisius 13y ago
    If a substantial number of your fans are sociopaths, then you should probably do something about it.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Should Obama be held responsible for the actions of his Naval officers if he declares we should pursue missile strikes in Syria? I mean, saying something and then your fans going overboard is one thing. But everytime 'dickwolves' gets mentioned the fanatics pull out the big guns again... maybe at some point Gabe and Tycho should anticipate that women out there will be the target of those same fanatics if they push the D.W. button again?
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      I'm not convinced that we can map the ethics used with situations involving the military chain of command to situations involving informal mobs. Now, we still have concepts like "inciting imminent lawless action" that are fairly non-controversial, so clearly there is at least some sense of blaming people who tell others to go make a mess, but I don't think that is nearly as clear-cut as your example.
    - danielweber 13y ago
      If I say something that offends a certain religion and those people burn down a building in response, and I knew they would do that, am I responsible for that? I used to think so -- if I didn't do X then bad thing Y wouldn't happen, so I could stop it, right? -- but it was some liberal friends of mine who convinced me otherwise. All you can be responsible for is yourself.
      - mpyne 13y ago
        Point taken, and I actually try to preach that mantra myself. But I agree with jlgreco about the greater credibility our law seems to give to public figures with regard to incitement. Certainly it's a problem I'm glad that I don't have to worry about, and I feel bad for Gabe in that regard just like I tend to pity many celebrity figures who just want their privacy back. :-/
      - saraid216 13y ago
        > All you can be responsible for is yourself. This is a nice piece of self-help advice, but it's a self-delusory trick to reduce the level of mental insanity that comes from a full acknowledgement of responsibility. Keep in mind that you're presuming a direct chain of cause and effect from your offensive words to the building-burning. When there isn't such a direct chain, then you have a much less direct responsibility. Which is the point. The strength of your agency in the causality is precisely what obligates you to make a meaningful decision. If you didn't know that committing a diff would result in someone losing all their money, then it's not really your fault. But if you did, then it is. It's liberalism's most detestable idiocy that everyone really is an island unto themselves and fuck the promontory that sinks into the sea. If you ever speak to anyone with the intent of persuading them at all, even if it's an evangelical-style "if only you'd read the Bible, you'd recognize that Jesus is your savior" except with facts and figures, you're somewhat responsible for the consequences of that persuasion.
wonderzombie 13y ago
people who are against mentioning rape at all Do you really think that's what this is about? Do you really think that people are against any discussion of rape? It's typically the opposite. The qualifier you're missing here is something like "non-trivializing" or "respectful" or ... It's not a joke for some people. Lest you bucket this as a women's issue (and thereby dismiss it as n/a for you), think about prison rape. Even if you personally would not find it offensive to joke about it were you a victim of same, is it really all that difficult to imagine someone else finding such jokes in poor taste?

pemulis 13y ago

Would adding up the number of rape threats directed against his critics count as a measurement?

bryze 13y ago
Should public figures be held responsible for the actions of their fanatics?
- danielweber 13y ago
  If they are on the Other Side from me, yes.
- Aloisius 13y ago
  If a substantial number of your fans are sociopaths, then you should probably do something about it.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Should Obama be held responsible for the actions of his Naval officers if he declares we should pursue missile strikes in Syria? I mean, saying something and then your fans going overboard is one thing. But everytime 'dickwolves' gets mentioned the fanatics pull out the big guns again... maybe at some point Gabe and Tycho should anticipate that women out there will be the target of those same fanatics if they push the D.W. button again?
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    I'm not convinced that we can map the ethics used with situations involving the military chain of command to situations involving informal mobs. Now, we still have concepts like "inciting imminent lawless action" that are fairly non-controversial, so clearly there is at least some sense of blaming people who tell others to go make a mess, but I don't think that is nearly as clear-cut as your example.
  - danielweber 13y ago
    If I say something that offends a certain religion and those people burn down a building in response, and I knew they would do that, am I responsible for that? I used to think so -- if I didn't do X then bad thing Y wouldn't happen, so I could stop it, right? -- but it was some liberal friends of mine who convinced me otherwise. All you can be responsible for is yourself.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Point taken, and I actually try to preach that mantra myself. But I agree with jlgreco about the greater credibility our law seems to give to public figures with regard to incitement. Certainly it's a problem I'm glad that I don't have to worry about, and I feel bad for Gabe in that regard just like I tend to pity many celebrity figures who just want their privacy back. :-/
    - saraid216 13y ago
      > All you can be responsible for is yourself. This is a nice piece of self-help advice, but it's a self-delusory trick to reduce the level of mental insanity that comes from a full acknowledgement of responsibility. Keep in mind that you're presuming a direct chain of cause and effect from your offensive words to the building-burning. When there isn't such a direct chain, then you have a much less direct responsibility. Which is the point. The strength of your agency in the causality is precisely what obligates you to make a meaningful decision. If you didn't know that committing a diff would result in someone losing all their money, then it's not really your fault. But if you did, then it is. It's liberalism's most detestable idiocy that everyone really is an island unto themselves and fuck the promontory that sinks into the sea. If you ever speak to anyone with the intent of persuading them at all, even if it's an evangelical-style "if only you'd read the Bible, you'd recognize that Jesus is your savior" except with facts and figures, you're somewhat responsible for the consequences of that persuasion.

wonderzombie 13y ago

people who are against mentioning rape at all Do you really think that's what this is about? Do you really think that people are against any discussion of rape? It's typically the opposite. The qualifier you're missing here is something like "non-trivializing" or "respectful" or ... It's not a joke for some people. Lest you bucket this as a women's issue (and thereby dismiss it as n/a for you), think about prison rape. Even if you personally would not find it offensive to joke about it were you a victim of same, is it really all that difficult to imagine someone else finding such jokes in poor taste?