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Why I’m Never Going Back to Penny Arcade Expo

69 points by replicatorblog 13y ago

drhayes9 13y ago
Totally agree. I'm not going to read Penny Arcade anymore, either. I don't support bullies.
mscottmcbee 13y ago
A week or two ago, a friend of mine mentioned going to PAX East and I was all for it. Now I'm not quite sure. I really think the quote by Rich Stevens in the article matches my feelings. > I could get over the original comic if they’d just moved on or apologized, but they had to make merchandise out of rape just to poke back at people and then encourage fans to wear it to a convention that supposedly has pro-woman policies. While I hear PAX is quite the event and it sounds like a lot of fun, being in the industry I already get a front row view of how toxic the game community can be. Emphasis on "can", there's a lot of great people in it, but they get drowned out. But lately it's been seeming like PA is more of the same toxicity and I don't want to support that.
- x0x0 13y ago
  fwiw, penny arcade also banned booth babes and generally seem reasonably feminist my guess is that Gabe was taken aback by the (imo over the top) attacks against him and that comic by feminist bloggers and is simply going to blind in this area from now on.
sramsay 13y ago
I've never been to PAX, have little interest in comics, and had never heard this story before. But if this is any way an accurate telling, then this whole thing is completely obscene. Rape jokes? Mocking people who object? Merchandising rape jokes? What the hell is wrong with these people? It is disquieting -- to the say the least -- how often rampant sexism shows up in the geek community. But this is so beyond the pale. Krahulik might be entitled to his rights as an artist, but no amount of pleading against censorship can ameliorate the fact that he has no ethical sense whatsoever. Is there any appropriate response to this other than unqualified outrage?
- DerpObvious 13y ago
  > sexism Wait, wait... how did you get sexism out of this particular issue? I'm not saying the dude isn't sexist or an asshole, but all of the characters in the offending strip were male, there's not specific reprisal against one particular gender of critics, etc. So there's lots of assholery going around, but how did you get /sexism/?
  - drhayes9 13y ago
    There is specific reprisal against one particular gender of critics. Outspoken women who critiqued the comic and PA's response were sent rape and death threats. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Dickwolves http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Dickwolves
    - DanBC 13y ago
      While I agree with you, men probably had threats of sexual and physical violence sent to them too.
      - drhayes9 13y ago
        Okay. But men don't exist in a culture that tells them to fear being raped, or that their physical appearance is what matters most about them, or that they should be demure and not like sex. In no way was I saying "men didn't receive threats". But don't act like threats of rape to men and women are received the same way. They're not.
        DanBC 13y ago
        No, you're right. It's easy for me to say "A troll writes the same horrible nonsense to everyone", and I had forgotten about the impact upon the receiver of the message.
    - DerpObvious 13y ago
      I would guess, much like another respondent, that such behavior was directed at /both/ genders of critics, and not specific to women. Do you have any evidence that this response, in particular, was directly solely or mainly at women and not critics at large?
saraid216 13y ago
Incidentally, there was a significant transphobic incident with Krahulik on Twitter a month or two ago, as well. I didn't see much of it, since I'm not on top of game news, but what I was pointed to wasn't exactly good.
- danielweber 13y ago
  I saw those tweets, out of context, and they were bad. But the context is important. A 17-year-old boy decide he gets to use the girls' room now, that's a different context than a transwoman talking about almost getting beaten to death.
snowwrestler 13y ago
An example of the great 21st century American power struggle: a fight to define who has been victimized more, and can therefore assume the mantle of moral authority. edit: spelling
- AsymetricCom 13y ago
  I must have missed the memo where I was told I have to care. Maybe my sense of social order is broken, but I tend not to care too much about who's trying to be king of that hill.
- thwest 13y ago
  I don't read PA's critics as arguing from a position of having "been vicimized [sic]." Their status as survivors is incidental to their argument. I read the criticism as being about the lack of empathy of PA's authors for their audience. You could replace the critics' status with gender-minority, and you'll find a more recent incident where Gabe was unable to empathize with his audience (denying the existence of transgender). Some comedians bill themselves as jerks and carve out a niche for their audience, but Penny Arcade purports to provide laughs for all gamers. While I am pleased that race-gender-sex-preference tensions are being discussed in public in the 21st century, but I find it highly questionable that this is a greater power struggle than the classic 20th century struggles of war and labor. Especially given that what is at stake here is mostly audience size and hurt feelings, compared to livelihood and physical anguish.
  - jaibot 13y ago
    40% of transgendered people have attempted suicide. Assault is pretty common. There is a lot of life at stake here.
    - thwest 13y ago
      I meant what is at stake in the victimization olympics framework that I was responding to. Downplaying violence against minorities was not intended.
jongraehl 13y ago
Why do these people assume that raped people want them putting on such a noisy rape-is-bad awareness show of "support"? How about advocating for changes that make rape less likely and, if possible, the social consequences to victims less severe? For example: more men than women in the U.S. are raped (though a woman not in prison does have more to fear, rationally). Getting offended by crude humor is fine as a personal aesthetic choice. Drawing attention to it seems futile.
- drhayes9 13y ago
  It's not the original comic that's at issue. It's Penny Arcade's response to the criticism they've received about it. It's not a "noisy rape-is-bad awareness show", it's protesting against a company that, quite literally, profited from a rape joke. And then said that they regretted not profiting from a rape joke. As far as advocating against rape, that's what this is. Poking fun at people who've been raped contributes to rape culture. Rape culture contributes to the conspiracy of silence around sexual assault (i.e. "They're gonna make fun of me too"). It's not that all taboo topics are off-limits for humor. It's that PAX bills itself as a safe space except for those times when the creator of the property wore a shirt making fun of rape victims' fear.
  - mhurron 13y ago
    > It's not that all taboo topics are off-limits for humor. Unless it's rape, then even mentioning it is 'poking fun at people who've been raped,' right?
    - drhayes9 13y ago
      Nope. And, as a bonus, you're deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying. Cool. Good humor punches up. Making a shirt that makes rape victims uncomfortable is punching down. Easy, right?
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        I think his point is that the original joke was punching at video game heroes (and the humans who play as them, the same people who are presumably the audience of the comic...), not at rape victims. What followed was obviously a bit less benign... but the original joke was not "punching down". (Also, the quality of humor is pretty subjective, I don't think there is a productive conversation to be had there.)
deleted 13y ago
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- deleted 13y ago
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  - lowboy 13y ago
    Other stuff is a rape apologist!
themstheones 13y ago
It's sad that enough people find this kind of humour enjoyable enough that they fill a conference.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  To be fair to PAX attendees, at this point the only real relationship between PAX and Penny-Arcade is the name. PAX is very much a pan-gaming expo that happens to be organized by PA.
mpyne 13y ago
I'm kind of torn... I've lost a child to SIDS, but I would not tell people that they can't make dead baby jokes at risk of revictimizing me. So many people have a pain point of some sort in their lives that if we go down that route there will be nothing left but PC-compatible sayings perfectly fit for a poster in corporate America. But at the same time the reaction to the controversy around the comic has been all types of screwed up by Gabe. Right or wrong, people have made it clear that the dickwolves thing makes them feel physically uneasy (at best). Whether it's right for people to feel that way is basically immaterial by this point; the argument was lost long ago, and Gabe is chasing after a train that is long departed. So while I don't doubt that Gabe (and Tycho) do not literally support people being raped, they have been told in no uncertain terms that is how many people perceive support for "Dickwolves". Any further push for 'free speech' there must come as a package with instilling a culture of rape... again, even if that's not how they mean for it to be perceived, that doesn't change the reality of how it is being perceived. I empathize with Gabe's greater point, but the fact is that he needs to start choosing different battles if he wants to win this 'war'. This particular battle was lost long ago.
- mbreese 13y ago
  I think that you're right that the real controversy wasn't over the comic, but rather his reaction to it. After reading the original strip (embedded in the article), I wasn't offended, and thought that it made a particularly good point about the screwed up ethics of quests. But, even though I wasn't offended, I could see how others might be and might want to express that. But then instead of simply explaining what the point of the strip was, and leaving it alone, he went off and made a big deal of it and tried to play the victim. That's where he is clearly in the wrong. He needs to listen to people who are telling him to stop talking about it. He lost, move on.
- kazagistar 13y ago
  > Any further push for 'free speech' there must come as a package with instilling a culture of rape... again, even if that's not how they mean for it to be perceived, that doesn't change the reality of how it is being perceived. Instilling implies a real effect, not just a perception of intent. In other words, culture must become measurable more pro rape as a result for there to be real harm. I haven't seen the evidence of this anywhere: the only effect it has had as far as I can see is people who are against mentioning rape at all getting angry about their perception of it (not changing anything).
danso 13y ago
I get that PA doesn't want to be seen as kowtowing to a mandate that they not push the boundaries of humor...but there were ways of handling this that are between the spectrum of being submissive and being "fuck you I do what I want"...and acknowledging that there is such a spectrum is not being a surrender monkey to the censors. Similarly, I find it frustrating to see these debates devolve into "Well what, we can't ever mention rape except in serious legal cases, ever?" I don't have much to add, but here's what I think is a canonical example of how to include rape in humor, courtesy Louis CK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu9q4sM1vmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu9q4sM1vmc
- tzakrajs 13y ago
  I don't see how rape victims would find Louis CK's example of rape humor acceptable. Rape victims probably dislike thinking about the subject at all. Is it that casting the victim in his joke as Hitler is somehow better than a nameless slave NPC in an MMO? I think we are missing the elephant in the room in that a lot of people find rape jokes funny -- to the point of being profitable enough to sell merchandise. But there is a small minority that are incredibly offended when the topic of rape is even broached. Where do we strike balance in that spectrum you mentioned?
CrazedGeek 13y ago
Here's Gabe's response to the whole situation: http://penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification
- ordinary 13y ago
  I clicked that link expecting to regret it almost immediately. I was pleasantly surprised. This is the most reasonable I've seen Gabe or anyone associated with Penny Arcade be about the subject in the almost 3 years it's been dragging on. And on... And on...
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Well I actually read PA myself and so I'm not surprised to see Gabe being reasonable the day or week after his mouth gets him in trouble. I /was/ surprised to see him get in trouble over this though as I thought he had learned to stay far far away from it by now. Here's hoping he holds onto this lesson for real this time.
- bentcorner 13y ago
  > In that same panel with Robert he asked us how we feel about being role models. We don’t aspire to be role models, just normal people, but we try to do what’s best with the platform we have. I think that's part of the problem here. They may not aspire to be role models, but because of their success and public visibility they have become them.
thewordis 13y ago
From the Penny Arcade blog on this incident, specifically Gabriel: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification "So let me start by saying I like the Dickwolves strip. I think it’s a strong comic and I still think the joke is funny. Would we make that strip today? Knowing what we know now and seeing how it hurt people, no. We wouldn’t. But at the time, it seemed pretty benign. With that said I absolutely regret everything we did after that comic. I regret the follow up strip, I regret making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret being such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset. I don’t think any of those things were good ideas. If we had just stopped with the strip and moved on, the Dickwolf never would have become what it is today. Which is a joke at the expense of rape victims or a symbol of the dismissal of people who have suffered a sexual assault. the comic itself obviously points out the absurd morality of the average MMO where you are actually forced to help some people and ignore others in the same situation. Oddly enough, the first comic by itself is exactly the opposite of what this whole thing has turned into."
- Guvante 13y ago
  His response to why he said pulling the merchandise was the mistake: > In hindsight all this did was open the wound back up and bring on a whole new wave of debate. Any action we took at the time just dug us deeper regardless of what it was. What we needed to do was stop. just stop. My guess would be he internally translated the message to mean "That we don't know about". Since he has previously said the whole incident was a mistake, he was probably thinking that this last bit was new to people. And I think all the points of this blog post are why they have changed their stance on a lot of those things. They were reacting as if they were defending their free speech, and they weren't incorrect in isolation, the problem was they thus enabled other people to act out in more extreme ways. Finally when people got annoyed at them for starting the whole thing, they assumed it was for the initial strip (which was fine by most people's standards, which is why it is still up), rookie mistake, but probably one they took to heart.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    > They were reacting as if they were defending their free speech, and they weren't incorrect in isolation, the problem was they thus enabled other people to act out in more extreme ways. I think this was the real issue for Gabe, and I'm glad to see that he seems to realize that himself. In essence, the dickwolves went off-message quickly, and what he thought he was defending against wasn't really the point of contention, and what he and Tycho were trying to say with the comic itself wasn't really what all of the comic's supporters had in mind. I suspect this is what it might feel like to learn that a favorite shirt suddenly became a polarizing insignia within a gang battle you hadn't even known was active on the streets. The shirt means one thing to you but something completely different outside your front door.
sergiotapia 13y ago
My response to these types of people: http://gayandy.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/fingers_and_thumb_in_circle_downward_motion.jpeg http://gayandy.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/fingers_and_thumb... Just ignore them and let them wallow in seething hatred of things that are obviously not meant to be taken offensively. Give me a break. I wish Penny Arcade _hadn't_ removed that merchandise. I mean what the f*ck?
jbellis 13y ago
Just from the last couple weeks, Penny Arcade has published jokes about violence against children and torture: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/08/19 http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/08/19 http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/08/12 http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/08/12 If you don't think that's funny, I hear you. But the people who are all "I'm so open minded about offensive humor until he starts talking about dickwolves" ... I don't get it.
- pyrocat 13y ago
  I think this controversy is more about his initial reaction to the people who complained on twitter, which he's stated many times that he regrets.
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  I found that comic you posted to be funny. I am a father and I abhor violence against children. If the comic really happened, that would be outrageous. But it isn't real, and it isn't trying to justify violence against children, nor is it making fun of victims of violence. I suppose some will label me a sociopath for my opinion. Perhaps I am one and just do not realize it.
Sagat 13y ago
This whole thing was blown way out of proportion. Sure, the comic's creator reacted poorly to the complaints and should have just moved on to other things, but I can't say I have sympathy for the persons who read too much into the joke and thought they should try to turn their private outrage in a public issue. I don't believe being offended is a valid reason for pulling down something (assuming the thing in question is legal). If we start vindicating loud, sensitive or manipulative people who try to remove content that doesn't please them, I think society is going to suffer as a result. More PC is never the solution. I can totally empathize with rape victims, it must have been a traumatic experience for them. But it should obvious to anyone that the comic was not promoting or encouraging rape at all and that the appropriate response if you didn't like it, was to ignore it. Humor is in the eye of the beholder. To give you an example, I knew an American guy who thought 9/11 jokes were incredibly offensive but had no qualms about mocking Haiti earthquake victims. Whether or not a joke is acceptable depends entirely on the audience. There is no moral code that stipulates in absolute terms what is funny and what isn't.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  If we start vindicating loud, sensitive or manipulative people who try to remove content that doesn't please them, I think society is going to suffer as a result. Actually, I think Mike Krahulik qualifies as loud, sensitive, and manipulative when he used his platform at his own conference to whine about people who embarrassed and annoyed him three years ago. Why bring it up again?
sergiosgc 13y ago
Humor has no forbidden themes. Forbidding themes approachable in humour is a slippery slope we, as a society, should not wish to enter. Uncomfortable themes that have been used in humour: death? Check. Religion? There's a whole subculture of it. Torture? Check. Disabilities? Of course. Dim-witts? Oh boy has it been used. War? The more war there is, the more it's mocked. Why should rape be any different?
tptacek 13y ago
See also Patton Oswalt's reconsideration of rape jokes: http://www.pattonoswalt.com/index.cfm?page=spew&id=167 http://www.pattonoswalt.com/index.cfm?page=spew&id=167
stephth 13y ago
Seems like this post is being either flagged or modded into oblivion. (As of writing, 1h old, 44 points, and already in page 2).
ahi 13y ago
The original joke didnt need an apology as it was clearly directed at the screwed up morality of games, ie rape only matters when it is part of a quest. Everything PA did after that was stupid and offensive.
vectorpush 13y ago
It's a 'rape' joke only insomuch as the word rape was used in the text. The comic doesn't encourage, make light of or invoke imagery of violence against women, so I humbly disagree that this is a reasonable example of sexism. If the word "sodomized" was used in place of the word "rape", the outrage would likely be non-existent. For the record, I do believe sexism is a serious problem in our society, particularly in tech, but I disagree that the comic and the defense of it by its authors is sexist.
- drhayes9 13y ago
  Again, almost none of the controversy stems from the comic itself. Most of it comes from PA's reaction to their critics' feedback.
  - vectorpush 13y ago
    Yeah, I keep hearing that, but just because some people perceive sexism, doesn't mean that they deserve special treatment lest one be accused of sexism. Also, reports of threats from anonymous internet trolls is the common denominator of every internet controversy, I can't take that seriously unless PA was encouraging users to send out hateful messages.
    - drhayes9 13y ago
      I'm not sure how to engage with you on this because I'm not sure what you're saying. It sounds like you're saying, "PA shouldn't be blamed for the Internet trolls that are out there already all the time." Or maybe, "Threats against women are garden-variety Internet trolling and not motivated particularly by their gender." You seem to also be saying, "People only perceive sexism; it doesn't objectively exist." I'll start by responding to all three and please correct me if I've misunderstood your points. 1. I don't blame PA for hateful comments its community sent out to people asking them to apologize for a rape joke. I blame them for profiting off of it, for recognizing that this was happening and thinking that it might be a good idea to make money from it or make light of it by encapsulating the outrage as a shirt. While they weren't specifically saying, "Go out and threaten women with rape and death," they were saying, "We don't think enough of their complaints to treat it seriously." I don't think it's out of line to see the thought process there: "PA themselves were making light of it, so maybe this whole thing isn't that big a deal?" 2. Sex-based threats against women (rape, specifically) are of course different than similar threats against men. Just like the US judicial system makes distinctions between hate crimes and non-hate crimes, or distinguishes between pre-meditated murder and spur-of-the-moment murder, sex-based threats against women are treated specially. They are derived from circumstances of who they are and how they are perceived in culture, both things that an individual has no hope of changing. Of course any threatened class of people deserves special treatment for being threatened for being in that class of people. 3. Sexism well and truly exists. I'm not going to try proving that to anyone else with access to Google.
canvia 13y ago
If you're offended by words then you are taking life way too seriously. Especially when they're words in an internet comic, intended to be a joke. The person that objects to the freedom to say whatever you want is the one being an asshole. The world isn't all sunshine and rainbows and no amount of denial or cognitive dissonance will change that. Sticks and stones...
pyrocat 13y ago
Holy shit this article is so bad. Let's see here we've got * taking quotes from troll accounts and implying those views are the same as Mike Krahuliks * calling out Penny Arcade for failing to address an incident of sexual assault among enforcers (spoilers: the offender was quickly kicked out and banned from PAX, which isn't even mentioned in the article) * implying that everyone who supports Mike makes rape and death threats This is a great hit piece disguised as socially responsible commentary. Here's Mike's response for those interested in another side of the story http://penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification There are far more viewpoints than the 2 extremes that seem to be outlined in this article, and I'm not defending either extreme. I think the original comic was funny if a little off color. I think the initial reaction to the comic was vitriolic and overblown. I think Mike's response to that vitriol was unprofessional and, as he put it "a massive AOE that hurt a lot of innocent people". That said, he's not a villain. Despite what people want to believe, Mike has owned up to his mistakes in the past (see his handling of the transphobic comments he made) and genuinely seems willing to learn from these experiences and be a better person. This whole controversy seems to be perpetuated by some very vocal minorities from opposite spectrums, each taking what the other extreme said and freaking out. Mike certainly didn't help the matter with his original comments, but people calling him a bigot and boycotting PAX are also (in my opinion) overreacting based on articles like this that get pageviews by fanning the fire.
- Aloisius 13y ago
  > * taking quotes from troll accounts and implying those views are the same as Mike Krahuliks Judging by the comments on the article page, those trolls are way too common. At some point if you're Mike Krahuliks, you have to ask yourself, why do I attract so many sociopaths? Frankly, if they are any indication of the attitudes of those who attend PAX, I wouldn't attend either.
  - pyrocat 13y ago
    Having attended every PAX on the west coast, I can safely say that taking the opinions of twitter trolls as a barometer for the culture of PAX is a grave mistake. It's a very welcoming community that generally looks down on trolls, misogyny, and sexism. Many people say that when they get to PAX they feel like they've finally come home. Many of the panels are chosen specifically to encourage a culture of acceptance. Just from this year, see: http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/hey-vasquez-you-ever-been-mistaken-for-a-man-a-discussion-of-military-servi http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/hey-vasquez-you-ever... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/everything-we-know-is-sexist.-now-what http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/everything-we-know-i... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/achieving-gender-diversity-in-gaming-ok-now-what http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/achieving-gender-div... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/gays-in-love-with-their-rpgs http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/gays-in-love-with-th... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/press-xy-presents-right-before-your-eyes-transitioning-within-a-game-commun http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/press-xy-presents-ri... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/you-game-like-a-girl-tales-of-trolls-white-knights http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/you-game-like-a-girl... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/political-correctness-in-gaming-lets-talk http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/political-correctnes... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/its-dangerous-to-go-alone-the-take-this-panel http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/its-dangerous-to-go-... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/gender-diversity-in-games-where-are-all-the-believable-female-characters http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/gender-diversity-in-...
davexunit 13y ago
What politically-correct babies we've become. I'm sick of the outrage that happens when comedians make rape jokes or other "offensive" jokes. The Penny Arcade guys don't support rape. They made a joke. What's the issue? Here's the late, great Patrice O'Neal on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjIuPSuYSOY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjIuPSuYSOY
- venomsnake 13y ago
  The problem is that they followed up. I have no problem with anyone being intentionally or unintentionally offensive. I have offended more than a few people in my life and have been annoyed from stuff other say way more than once and it evens. When you see you hurt someone unintentionally you apologize. It is not hard. And then you shut up. That's it. Don't try to wiggle your way out from the situation or save face. Don't spin it or use "PR". I used the word hurt intentionally. Because there is whole class of people whose job it to be professionally offended. And they are better ignored or teased.
Aloisius 13y ago
This entire incident could be taught as a textbook example of what not to do in public relations. You have everything: a demonstrated lack of empathy, attacking the victim, continued engagement over a long period of time, over-the-top antagonizing behavior (t-shirts? really?). Had he upset a more powerful and organized group and had the same response, PAX would be finished.
johnjlocke 13y ago
It's really kind of sad that this sort of thing even needs to be explained to the tech culture. I can only hope that the apologists for Gabe grow up at some point; maybe when they have daughters of their own whose safety they have to look after. It's never been about the original strip. It's always been about PA's reaction to their own community telling them that the strip was over the line. Rather than apologize, they made it personal, and set out to mock victims of rape. It's not about free speech, and it never was. It's about what happens when a person who was picked on as a kid gets the power to bully back, even if he is clearly in the wrong. If you have a community, you are responsible for setting the tone. That's your responsibility as a leader. Throwing gas on the fire by making merchandise, and still bringing this shit up 3 years later is not the way to be a leader. Is Gabe responsible for his followers being assholes? No, not directly. But dredging up the dickwolves again isn't going to help matters at all. People are sheep, even the ones who think they are the smartest ones in the room. Obviously, all the people arguing on behalf of PA showing zero maturity have never had a mother, sister, or daughter who have been raped. Otherwise they get over the intellectual arguments, and act like a human being. All the other arguments excusing Gabe's unprovoked outburst are intellectual bullshit that no one cares about.

Totally agree. I'm not going to read Penny Arcade anymore, either. I don't support bullies.

A week or two ago, a friend of mine mentioned going to PAX East and I was all for it. Now I'm not quite sure. I really think the quote by Rich Stevens in the article matches my feelings. > I could get over the original comic if they’d just moved on or apologized, but they had to make merchandise out of rape just to poke back at people and then encourage fans to wear it to a convention that supposedly has pro-woman policies. While I hear PAX is quite the event and it sounds like a lot of fun, being in the industry I already get a front row view of how toxic the game community can be. Emphasis on "can", there's a lot of great people in it, but they get drowned out. But lately it's been seeming like PA is more of the same toxicity and I don't want to support that.

x0x0 13y ago
fwiw, penny arcade also banned booth babes and generally seem reasonably feminist my guess is that Gabe was taken aback by the (imo over the top) attacks against him and that comic by feminist bloggers and is simply going to blind in this area from now on.

sramsay 13y ago

I've never been to PAX, have little interest in comics, and had never heard this story before. But if this is any way an accurate telling, then this whole thing is completely obscene. Rape jokes? Mocking people who object? Merchandising rape jokes? What the hell is wrong with these people? It is disquieting -- to the say the least -- how often rampant sexism shows up in the geek community. But this is so beyond the pale. Krahulik might be entitled to his rights as an artist, but no amount of pleading against censorship can ameliorate the fact that he has no ethical sense whatsoever. Is there any appropriate response to this other than unqualified outrage?

DerpObvious 13y ago
> sexism Wait, wait... how did you get sexism out of this particular issue? I'm not saying the dude isn't sexist or an asshole, but all of the characters in the offending strip were male, there's not specific reprisal against one particular gender of critics, etc. So there's lots of assholery going around, but how did you get /sexism/?
- drhayes9 13y ago
  There is specific reprisal against one particular gender of critics. Outspoken women who critiqued the comic and PA's response were sent rape and death threats. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Dickwolves http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Dickwolves
  - DanBC 13y ago
    While I agree with you, men probably had threats of sexual and physical violence sent to them too.
    - drhayes9 13y ago
      Okay. But men don't exist in a culture that tells them to fear being raped, or that their physical appearance is what matters most about them, or that they should be demure and not like sex. In no way was I saying "men didn't receive threats". But don't act like threats of rape to men and women are received the same way. They're not.
      - DanBC 13y ago
        No, you're right. It's easy for me to say "A troll writes the same horrible nonsense to everyone", and I had forgotten about the impact upon the receiver of the message.
  - DerpObvious 13y ago
    I would guess, much like another respondent, that such behavior was directed at /both/ genders of critics, and not specific to women. Do you have any evidence that this response, in particular, was directly solely or mainly at women and not critics at large?

saraid216 13y ago

Incidentally, there was a significant transphobic incident with Krahulik on Twitter a month or two ago, as well. I didn't see much of it, since I'm not on top of game news, but what I was pointed to wasn't exactly good.

danielweber 13y ago
I saw those tweets, out of context, and they were bad. But the context is important. A 17-year-old boy decide he gets to use the girls' room now, that's a different context than a transwoman talking about almost getting beaten to death.

snowwrestler 13y ago

An example of the great 21st century American power struggle: a fight to define who has been victimized more, and can therefore assume the mantle of moral authority. edit: spelling

AsymetricCom 13y ago
I must have missed the memo where I was told I have to care. Maybe my sense of social order is broken, but I tend not to care too much about who's trying to be king of that hill.
thwest 13y ago
I don't read PA's critics as arguing from a position of having "been vicimized [sic]." Their status as survivors is incidental to their argument. I read the criticism as being about the lack of empathy of PA's authors for their audience. You could replace the critics' status with gender-minority, and you'll find a more recent incident where Gabe was unable to empathize with his audience (denying the existence of transgender). Some comedians bill themselves as jerks and carve out a niche for their audience, but Penny Arcade purports to provide laughs for all gamers. While I am pleased that race-gender-sex-preference tensions are being discussed in public in the 21st century, but I find it highly questionable that this is a greater power struggle than the classic 20th century struggles of war and labor. Especially given that what is at stake here is mostly audience size and hurt feelings, compared to livelihood and physical anguish.
- jaibot 13y ago
  40% of transgendered people have attempted suicide. Assault is pretty common. There is a lot of life at stake here.
  - thwest 13y ago
    I meant what is at stake in the victimization olympics framework that I was responding to. Downplaying violence against minorities was not intended.

jongraehl 13y ago

Why do these people assume that raped people want them putting on such a noisy rape-is-bad awareness show of "support"? How about advocating for changes that make rape less likely and, if possible, the social consequences to victims less severe? For example: more men than women in the U.S. are raped (though a woman not in prison does have more to fear, rationally). Getting offended by crude humor is fine as a personal aesthetic choice. Drawing attention to it seems futile.

drhayes9 13y ago
It's not the original comic that's at issue. It's Penny Arcade's response to the criticism they've received about it. It's not a "noisy rape-is-bad awareness show", it's protesting against a company that, quite literally, profited from a rape joke. And then said that they regretted not profiting from a rape joke. As far as advocating against rape, that's what this is. Poking fun at people who've been raped contributes to rape culture. Rape culture contributes to the conspiracy of silence around sexual assault (i.e. "They're gonna make fun of me too"). It's not that all taboo topics are off-limits for humor. It's that PAX bills itself as a safe space except for those times when the creator of the property wore a shirt making fun of rape victims' fear.
- mhurron 13y ago
  > It's not that all taboo topics are off-limits for humor. Unless it's rape, then even mentioning it is 'poking fun at people who've been raped,' right?
  - drhayes9 13y ago
    Nope. And, as a bonus, you're deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying. Cool. Good humor punches up. Making a shirt that makes rape victims uncomfortable is punching down. Easy, right?
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      I think his point is that the original joke was punching at video game heroes (and the humans who play as them, the same people who are presumably the audience of the comic...), not at rape victims. What followed was obviously a bit less benign... but the original joke was not "punching down". (Also, the quality of humor is pretty subjective, I don't think there is a productive conversation to be had there.)

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- lowboy 13y ago
  Other stuff is a rape apologist!

themstheones 13y ago

It's sad that enough people find this kind of humour enjoyable enough that they fill a conference.

potatolicious 13y ago
To be fair to PAX attendees, at this point the only real relationship between PAX and Penny-Arcade is the name. PAX is very much a pan-gaming expo that happens to be organized by PA.

mpyne 13y ago

I'm kind of torn... I've lost a child to SIDS, but I would not tell people that they can't make dead baby jokes at risk of revictimizing me. So many people have a pain point of some sort in their lives that if we go down that route there will be nothing left but PC-compatible sayings perfectly fit for a poster in corporate America. But at the same time the reaction to the controversy around the comic has been all types of screwed up by Gabe. Right or wrong, people have made it clear that the dickwolves thing makes them feel physically uneasy (at best). Whether it's right for people to feel that way is basically immaterial by this point; the argument was lost long ago, and Gabe is chasing after a train that is long departed. So while I don't doubt that Gabe (and Tycho) do not literally support people being raped, they have been told in no uncertain terms that is how many people perceive support for "Dickwolves". Any further push for 'free speech' there must come as a package with instilling a culture of rape... again, even if that's not how they mean for it to be perceived, that doesn't change the reality of how it is being perceived. I empathize with Gabe's greater point, but the fact is that he needs to start choosing different battles if he wants to win this 'war'. This particular battle was lost long ago.

mbreese 13y ago
I think that you're right that the real controversy wasn't over the comic, but rather his reaction to it. After reading the original strip (embedded in the article), I wasn't offended, and thought that it made a particularly good point about the screwed up ethics of quests. But, even though I wasn't offended, I could see how others might be and might want to express that. But then instead of simply explaining what the point of the strip was, and leaving it alone, he went off and made a big deal of it and tried to play the victim. That's where he is clearly in the wrong. He needs to listen to people who are telling him to stop talking about it. He lost, move on.
kazagistar 13y ago
> Any further push for 'free speech' there must come as a package with instilling a culture of rape... again, even if that's not how they mean for it to be perceived, that doesn't change the reality of how it is being perceived. Instilling implies a real effect, not just a perception of intent. In other words, culture must become measurable more pro rape as a result for there to be real harm. I haven't seen the evidence of this anywhere: the only effect it has had as far as I can see is people who are against mentioning rape at all getting angry about their perception of it (not changing anything).

danso 13y ago

I get that PA doesn't want to be seen as kowtowing to a mandate that they not push the boundaries of humor...but there were ways of handling this that are between the spectrum of being submissive and being "fuck you I do what I want"...and acknowledging that there is such a spectrum is not being a surrender monkey to the censors. Similarly, I find it frustrating to see these debates devolve into "Well what, we can't ever mention rape except in serious legal cases, ever?" I don't have much to add, but here's what I think is a canonical example of how to include rape in humor, courtesy Louis CK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu9q4sM1vmc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu9q4sM1vmc

tzakrajs 13y ago
I don't see how rape victims would find Louis CK's example of rape humor acceptable. Rape victims probably dislike thinking about the subject at all. Is it that casting the victim in his joke as Hitler is somehow better than a nameless slave NPC in an MMO? I think we are missing the elephant in the room in that a lot of people find rape jokes funny -- to the point of being profitable enough to sell merchandise. But there is a small minority that are incredibly offended when the topic of rape is even broached. Where do we strike balance in that spectrum you mentioned?

CrazedGeek 13y ago

Here's Gabe's response to the whole situation: http://penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification

ordinary 13y ago
I clicked that link expecting to regret it almost immediately. I was pleasantly surprised. This is the most reasonable I've seen Gabe or anyone associated with Penny Arcade be about the subject in the almost 3 years it's been dragging on. And on... And on...
- mpyne 13y ago
  Well I actually read PA myself and so I'm not surprised to see Gabe being reasonable the day or week after his mouth gets him in trouble. I /was/ surprised to see him get in trouble over this though as I thought he had learned to stay far far away from it by now. Here's hoping he holds onto this lesson for real this time.
bentcorner 13y ago
> In that same panel with Robert he asked us how we feel about being role models. We don’t aspire to be role models, just normal people, but we try to do what’s best with the platform we have. I think that's part of the problem here. They may not aspire to be role models, but because of their success and public visibility they have become them.

thewordis 13y ago

From the Penny Arcade blog on this incident, specifically Gabriel: http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://www.penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification "So let me start by saying I like the Dickwolves strip. I think it’s a strong comic and I still think the joke is funny. Would we make that strip today? Knowing what we know now and seeing how it hurt people, no. We wouldn’t. But at the time, it seemed pretty benign. With that said I absolutely regret everything we did after that comic. I regret the follow up strip, I regret making the merchandise, I regret pulling the merchandise and I regret being such an asshole on twitter to people who were upset. I don’t think any of those things were good ideas. If we had just stopped with the strip and moved on, the Dickwolf never would have become what it is today. Which is a joke at the expense of rape victims or a symbol of the dismissal of people who have suffered a sexual assault. the comic itself obviously points out the absurd morality of the average MMO where you are actually forced to help some people and ignore others in the same situation. Oddly enough, the first comic by itself is exactly the opposite of what this whole thing has turned into."

Guvante 13y ago
His response to why he said pulling the merchandise was the mistake: > In hindsight all this did was open the wound back up and bring on a whole new wave of debate. Any action we took at the time just dug us deeper regardless of what it was. What we needed to do was stop. just stop. My guess would be he internally translated the message to mean "That we don't know about". Since he has previously said the whole incident was a mistake, he was probably thinking that this last bit was new to people. And I think all the points of this blog post are why they have changed their stance on a lot of those things. They were reacting as if they were defending their free speech, and they weren't incorrect in isolation, the problem was they thus enabled other people to act out in more extreme ways. Finally when people got annoyed at them for starting the whole thing, they assumed it was for the initial strip (which was fine by most people's standards, which is why it is still up), rookie mistake, but probably one they took to heart.
- mpyne 13y ago
  > They were reacting as if they were defending their free speech, and they weren't incorrect in isolation, the problem was they thus enabled other people to act out in more extreme ways. I think this was the real issue for Gabe, and I'm glad to see that he seems to realize that himself. In essence, the dickwolves went off-message quickly, and what he thought he was defending against wasn't really the point of contention, and what he and Tycho were trying to say with the comic itself wasn't really what all of the comic's supporters had in mind. I suspect this is what it might feel like to learn that a favorite shirt suddenly became a polarizing insignia within a gang battle you hadn't even known was active on the streets. The shirt means one thing to you but something completely different outside your front door.

sergiotapia 13y ago

My response to these types of people: http://gayandy.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/fingers_and_thumb_in_circle_downward_motion.jpeg http://gayandy.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/fingers_and_thumb... Just ignore them and let them wallow in seething hatred of things that are obviously not meant to be taken offensively. Give me a break. I wish Penny Arcade _hadn't_ removed that merchandise. I mean what the f*ck?

jbellis 13y ago

Just from the last couple weeks, Penny Arcade has published jokes about violence against children and torture: http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/08/19 http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/08/19 http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/08/12 http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/08/12 If you don't think that's funny, I hear you. But the people who are all "I'm so open minded about offensive humor until he starts talking about dickwolves" ... I don't get it.

pyrocat 13y ago
I think this controversy is more about his initial reaction to the people who complained on twitter, which he's stated many times that he regrets.
nsxwolf 13y ago
I found that comic you posted to be funny. I am a father and I abhor violence against children. If the comic really happened, that would be outrageous. But it isn't real, and it isn't trying to justify violence against children, nor is it making fun of victims of violence. I suppose some will label me a sociopath for my opinion. Perhaps I am one and just do not realize it.

Sagat 13y ago

This whole thing was blown way out of proportion. Sure, the comic's creator reacted poorly to the complaints and should have just moved on to other things, but I can't say I have sympathy for the persons who read too much into the joke and thought they should try to turn their private outrage in a public issue. I don't believe being offended is a valid reason for pulling down something (assuming the thing in question is legal). If we start vindicating loud, sensitive or manipulative people who try to remove content that doesn't please them, I think society is going to suffer as a result. More PC is never the solution. I can totally empathize with rape victims, it must have been a traumatic experience for them. But it should obvious to anyone that the comic was not promoting or encouraging rape at all and that the appropriate response if you didn't like it, was to ignore it. Humor is in the eye of the beholder. To give you an example, I knew an American guy who thought 9/11 jokes were incredibly offensive but had no qualms about mocking Haiti earthquake victims. Whether or not a joke is acceptable depends entirely on the audience. There is no moral code that stipulates in absolute terms what is funny and what isn't.

anigbrowl 13y ago
If we start vindicating loud, sensitive or manipulative people who try to remove content that doesn't please them, I think society is going to suffer as a result. Actually, I think Mike Krahulik qualifies as loud, sensitive, and manipulative when he used his platform at his own conference to whine about people who embarrassed and annoyed him three years ago. Why bring it up again?

sergiosgc 13y ago

Humor has no forbidden themes. Forbidding themes approachable in humour is a slippery slope we, as a society, should not wish to enter. Uncomfortable themes that have been used in humour: death? Check. Religion? There's a whole subculture of it. Torture? Check. Disabilities? Of course. Dim-witts? Oh boy has it been used. War? The more war there is, the more it's mocked. Why should rape be any different?

tptacek 13y ago

See also Patton Oswalt's reconsideration of rape jokes: http://www.pattonoswalt.com/index.cfm?page=spew&id=167 http://www.pattonoswalt.com/index.cfm?page=spew&id=167

stephth 13y ago

Seems like this post is being either flagged or modded into oblivion. (As of writing, 1h old, 44 points, and already in page 2).

ahi 13y ago

The original joke didnt need an apology as it was clearly directed at the screwed up morality of games, ie rape only matters when it is part of a quest. Everything PA did after that was stupid and offensive.

vectorpush 13y ago

It's a 'rape' joke only insomuch as the word rape was used in the text. The comic doesn't encourage, make light of or invoke imagery of violence against women, so I humbly disagree that this is a reasonable example of sexism. If the word "sodomized" was used in place of the word "rape", the outrage would likely be non-existent. For the record, I do believe sexism is a serious problem in our society, particularly in tech, but I disagree that the comic and the defense of it by its authors is sexist.

drhayes9 13y ago
Again, almost none of the controversy stems from the comic itself. Most of it comes from PA's reaction to their critics' feedback.
- vectorpush 13y ago
  Yeah, I keep hearing that, but just because some people perceive sexism, doesn't mean that they deserve special treatment lest one be accused of sexism. Also, reports of threats from anonymous internet trolls is the common denominator of every internet controversy, I can't take that seriously unless PA was encouraging users to send out hateful messages.
  - drhayes9 13y ago
    I'm not sure how to engage with you on this because I'm not sure what you're saying. It sounds like you're saying, "PA shouldn't be blamed for the Internet trolls that are out there already all the time." Or maybe, "Threats against women are garden-variety Internet trolling and not motivated particularly by their gender." You seem to also be saying, "People only perceive sexism; it doesn't objectively exist." I'll start by responding to all three and please correct me if I've misunderstood your points. 1. I don't blame PA for hateful comments its community sent out to people asking them to apologize for a rape joke. I blame them for profiting off of it, for recognizing that this was happening and thinking that it might be a good idea to make money from it or make light of it by encapsulating the outrage as a shirt. While they weren't specifically saying, "Go out and threaten women with rape and death," they were saying, "We don't think enough of their complaints to treat it seriously." I don't think it's out of line to see the thought process there: "PA themselves were making light of it, so maybe this whole thing isn't that big a deal?" 2. Sex-based threats against women (rape, specifically) are of course different than similar threats against men. Just like the US judicial system makes distinctions between hate crimes and non-hate crimes, or distinguishes between pre-meditated murder and spur-of-the-moment murder, sex-based threats against women are treated specially. They are derived from circumstances of who they are and how they are perceived in culture, both things that an individual has no hope of changing. Of course any threatened class of people deserves special treatment for being threatened for being in that class of people. 3. Sexism well and truly exists. I'm not going to try proving that to anyone else with access to Google.

canvia 13y ago

If you're offended by words then you are taking life way too seriously. Especially when they're words in an internet comic, intended to be a joke. The person that objects to the freedom to say whatever you want is the one being an asshole. The world isn't all sunshine and rainbows and no amount of denial or cognitive dissonance will change that. Sticks and stones...

pyrocat 13y ago

Holy shit this article is so bad. Let's see here we've got * taking quotes from troll accounts and implying those views are the same as Mike Krahuliks * calling out Penny Arcade for failing to address an incident of sexual assault among enforcers (spoilers: the offender was quickly kicked out and banned from PAX, which isn't even mentioned in the article) * implying that everyone who supports Mike makes rape and death threats This is a great hit piece disguised as socially responsible commentary. Here's Mike's response for those interested in another side of the story http://penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification http://penny-arcade.com/2013/09/04/some-clarification There are far more viewpoints than the 2 extremes that seem to be outlined in this article, and I'm not defending either extreme. I think the original comic was funny if a little off color. I think the initial reaction to the comic was vitriolic and overblown. I think Mike's response to that vitriol was unprofessional and, as he put it "a massive AOE that hurt a lot of innocent people". That said, he's not a villain. Despite what people want to believe, Mike has owned up to his mistakes in the past (see his handling of the transphobic comments he made) and genuinely seems willing to learn from these experiences and be a better person. This whole controversy seems to be perpetuated by some very vocal minorities from opposite spectrums, each taking what the other extreme said and freaking out. Mike certainly didn't help the matter with his original comments, but people calling him a bigot and boycotting PAX are also (in my opinion) overreacting based on articles like this that get pageviews by fanning the fire.

Aloisius 13y ago
> * taking quotes from troll accounts and implying those views are the same as Mike Krahuliks Judging by the comments on the article page, those trolls are way too common. At some point if you're Mike Krahuliks, you have to ask yourself, why do I attract so many sociopaths? Frankly, if they are any indication of the attitudes of those who attend PAX, I wouldn't attend either.
- pyrocat 13y ago
  Having attended every PAX on the west coast, I can safely say that taking the opinions of twitter trolls as a barometer for the culture of PAX is a grave mistake. It's a very welcoming community that generally looks down on trolls, misogyny, and sexism. Many people say that when they get to PAX they feel like they've finally come home. Many of the panels are chosen specifically to encourage a culture of acceptance. Just from this year, see: http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/hey-vasquez-you-ever-been-mistaken-for-a-man-a-discussion-of-military-servi http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/hey-vasquez-you-ever... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/everything-we-know-is-sexist.-now-what http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/everything-we-know-i... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/achieving-gender-diversity-in-gaming-ok-now-what http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/achieving-gender-div... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/gays-in-love-with-their-rpgs http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/gays-in-love-with-th... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/press-xy-presents-right-before-your-eyes-transitioning-within-a-game-commun http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/press-xy-presents-ri... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/you-game-like-a-girl-tales-of-trolls-white-knights http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/you-game-like-a-girl... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/political-correctness-in-gaming-lets-talk http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/political-correctnes... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/its-dangerous-to-go-alone-the-take-this-panel http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/its-dangerous-to-go-... http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/gender-diversity-in-games-where-are-all-the-believable-female-characters http://prime.paxsite.com/schedule/panel/gender-diversity-in-...

davexunit 13y ago

What politically-correct babies we've become. I'm sick of the outrage that happens when comedians make rape jokes or other "offensive" jokes. The Penny Arcade guys don't support rape. They made a joke. What's the issue? Here's the late, great Patrice O'Neal on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjIuPSuYSOY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjIuPSuYSOY

venomsnake 13y ago
The problem is that they followed up. I have no problem with anyone being intentionally or unintentionally offensive. I have offended more than a few people in my life and have been annoyed from stuff other say way more than once and it evens. When you see you hurt someone unintentionally you apologize. It is not hard. And then you shut up. That's it. Don't try to wiggle your way out from the situation or save face. Don't spin it or use "PR". I used the word hurt intentionally. Because there is whole class of people whose job it to be professionally offended. And they are better ignored or teased.

Aloisius 13y ago

This entire incident could be taught as a textbook example of what not to do in public relations. You have everything: a demonstrated lack of empathy, attacking the victim, continued engagement over a long period of time, over-the-top antagonizing behavior (t-shirts? really?). Had he upset a more powerful and organized group and had the same response, PAX would be finished.

johnjlocke 13y ago

It's really kind of sad that this sort of thing even needs to be explained to the tech culture. I can only hope that the apologists for Gabe grow up at some point; maybe when they have daughters of their own whose safety they have to look after. It's never been about the original strip. It's always been about PA's reaction to their own community telling them that the strip was over the line. Rather than apologize, they made it personal, and set out to mock victims of rape. It's not about free speech, and it never was. It's about what happens when a person who was picked on as a kid gets the power to bully back, even if he is clearly in the wrong. If you have a community, you are responsible for setting the tone. That's your responsibility as a leader. Throwing gas on the fire by making merchandise, and still bringing this shit up 3 years later is not the way to be a leader. Is Gabe responsible for his followers being assholes? No, not directly. But dredging up the dickwolves again isn't going to help matters at all. People are sheep, even the ones who think they are the smartest ones in the room. Obviously, all the people arguing on behalf of PA showing zero maturity have never had a mother, sister, or daughter who have been raped. Otherwise they get over the intellectual arguments, and act like a human being. All the other arguments excusing Gabe's unprovoked outburst are intellectual bullshit that no one cares about.