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You're probably right, what do I know I've only been programming professionally for 3 years. However, I find that it's more helpful to have a positive attitude

You're probably right, what do I know I've only been programming professionally for 3 years. However, I find that it's more helpful to have a positive attitude when reading code I didn't write. "Why did he write it this weird way?" taught me so much more than "this is shit, let me rewrite it the way I'm familiar with". I'm not denying that I found seriously bad code running in production. And I'm not denying that it's more common that I would've believed. But the moment I start treating every piece of foreign code as shit, I'll miss out on interesting insightful techniques. The point of this article is a reminder that it's easy to get sucked in the "this is shit" culture.

drtse4 13y ago
Exactly, that "Why did he write it this weird way?" helps you understand the programmer who wrote it (his level of expertise) and gives the opportunity to analyse the tradeoffs he made. This helps discern between real shit and unpleasant code that had to be written/structured that way.
mgkimsal 13y ago
"Why did he write it this weird way?" taught me so much more than "this is shit, let me rewrite it the way I'm familiar with". --------------------- You're 3 years in. In another 3-5 years (maybe more), this 'positive attitude' will (and should) go away. You'll have a much better understanding of the 'weird' ways, and will be able to tell 'quick hacks' from 'crap code' as the OP was referring to. You will have learned most of what you need to know by investigating the 'weird way', and you'll see the patterns, and you'll be at this for 15 years, and you'll be seeing the majority of stuff coming out being crap code by younger developers. It's the way of the world.
- acjohnson55 13y ago
  I'd much prefer to have GP on my team than you, frankly. I think companies are much more productive when they have people willing to learn from and teach one another rather than bringing negativity.
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    The last few years, I've primarily been working freelance going in to companies and dealing with crap cleanup left by people who were "positive" about their own abilities, gave a pass to everyone else on the team who could get something to run without too many obvious errors, then left. So... you can call it negative, I call it realistic. I'm pleasantly surprised when I discover good, well-written code, and it means my estimates can be revised downward - something everyone enjoys. Hoping for the best and getting the worst is horrible - expecting "meh" and getting a positive shock is great, but doesn't happen all that often. I'd have loved to be at a company where people learned from each other and taught one another - imo, it's extremely rare. I've seen it a couple times in the past 15 years, but more often than not, politics and/or ineptitude takes over, and the 'learning/teaching' thing goes out the window. As a developer, I had a technical manager over me who'd never coded. I've had a colleague who was hired to 'fix bugs', and has to watch the people who wrote the bugs go rewrite everything in to a 'version 2', rewriting exactly the same problems, because "they've been here longer". So... yeah, companies that foster teaching/learning environments might be nice, but it takes a LOT of work to get right.
  - wnewman 13y ago
    "rather than bringing negativity" That seems like a false dichotomy. Someone who's a pollyanna even about horrendous abominations is a problem in one way, someone who's indiscriminately contemptuous of reasonably useful code is a problem in another way. Software projects (or teams, or companies) can bog down or die in more than one way. Driving off people who are doing reasonably good work is one way, tolerating unreasonably low standards is another. And also, correct criticism is not particularly "bringing" negativity. If there is something unacceptably technically bad, and you want to point to the person or people who brought the negativity, you'd do better to point to the original creators and/or the chain of people who have signed off on it since then, rather than pointing to the person who criticizes the problem. The irreverent child did not bring the negativity to the Emperor's famous tailoring fiasco. Someone who reasonably reliably distinguishes between good and bad is useful. Making the distinction correctly is generally much more important than the style of expression. It's easy to hire pollyannas (or, indeed, to err in the opposite direction by hiring hard-driving abrasive jerks) who don't have the tech skills to make the distinction correctly and just fall back to emoting in their preferred style. It works better to hire the smaller fraction of people who can do a good job, and who can recognize a good job. When you do that, it doesn't solve all style-related abrasiveness problems, but it does help mitigate them. By the time you've worked with someone for a while you learn to translate A's "this is unacceptable" as synonymous with B's "this is flaming rancid goat barf". (And axiomatic though it seems to be to you, in my experience saying "flaming rancid goat barf" is not useful evidence of unwillingness to learn and teach.) Both A and B are useful as long as they're reasonably reliably correct. Much bigger problems are C who says "this is a good effort" about everything, and D who flips between praise and condemnation based on issues other than technical quality (randomness, politics, mood swings, whatever).
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  Needed to add on to this - without knowing what good code is, you can't learn much from bad code, and likely won't be able to identify it.
- mcv 13y ago
  I've been programming professionally for over 10 years, and when I see some weird code, I still try to figure out who wrote it and ask him before I change it. Often he admits it's shit and needs to be changed, or he just doesn't know anymore, but sometimes there was actually a very good reason for doing it like that. Those few times make it worth to never judge too early. Blindly assuming you know better is arrogant and will inevitably lead to problems. Discussing the underlying reasons will almost always teach you something.

drtse4 13y ago

Exactly, that "Why did he write it this weird way?" helps you understand the programmer who wrote it (his level of expertise) and gives the opportunity to analyse the tradeoffs he made. This helps discern between real shit and unpleasant code that had to be written/structured that way.

mgkimsal 13y ago

"Why did he write it this weird way?" taught me so much more than "this is shit, let me rewrite it the way I'm familiar with". --------------------- You're 3 years in. In another 3-5 years (maybe more), this 'positive attitude' will (and should) go away. You'll have a much better understanding of the 'weird' ways, and will be able to tell 'quick hacks' from 'crap code' as the OP was referring to. You will have learned most of what you need to know by investigating the 'weird way', and you'll see the patterns, and you'll be at this for 15 years, and you'll be seeing the majority of stuff coming out being crap code by younger developers. It's the way of the world.

acjohnson55 13y ago
I'd much prefer to have GP on my team than you, frankly. I think companies are much more productive when they have people willing to learn from and teach one another rather than bringing negativity.
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  The last few years, I've primarily been working freelance going in to companies and dealing with crap cleanup left by people who were "positive" about their own abilities, gave a pass to everyone else on the team who could get something to run without too many obvious errors, then left. So... you can call it negative, I call it realistic. I'm pleasantly surprised when I discover good, well-written code, and it means my estimates can be revised downward - something everyone enjoys. Hoping for the best and getting the worst is horrible - expecting "meh" and getting a positive shock is great, but doesn't happen all that often. I'd have loved to be at a company where people learned from each other and taught one another - imo, it's extremely rare. I've seen it a couple times in the past 15 years, but more often than not, politics and/or ineptitude takes over, and the 'learning/teaching' thing goes out the window. As a developer, I had a technical manager over me who'd never coded. I've had a colleague who was hired to 'fix bugs', and has to watch the people who wrote the bugs go rewrite everything in to a 'version 2', rewriting exactly the same problems, because "they've been here longer". So... yeah, companies that foster teaching/learning environments might be nice, but it takes a LOT of work to get right.
- wnewman 13y ago
  "rather than bringing negativity" That seems like a false dichotomy. Someone who's a pollyanna even about horrendous abominations is a problem in one way, someone who's indiscriminately contemptuous of reasonably useful code is a problem in another way. Software projects (or teams, or companies) can bog down or die in more than one way. Driving off people who are doing reasonably good work is one way, tolerating unreasonably low standards is another. And also, correct criticism is not particularly "bringing" negativity. If there is something unacceptably technically bad, and you want to point to the person or people who brought the negativity, you'd do better to point to the original creators and/or the chain of people who have signed off on it since then, rather than pointing to the person who criticizes the problem. The irreverent child did not bring the negativity to the Emperor's famous tailoring fiasco. Someone who reasonably reliably distinguishes between good and bad is useful. Making the distinction correctly is generally much more important than the style of expression. It's easy to hire pollyannas (or, indeed, to err in the opposite direction by hiring hard-driving abrasive jerks) who don't have the tech skills to make the distinction correctly and just fall back to emoting in their preferred style. It works better to hire the smaller fraction of people who can do a good job, and who can recognize a good job. When you do that, it doesn't solve all style-related abrasiveness problems, but it does help mitigate them. By the time you've worked with someone for a while you learn to translate A's "this is unacceptable" as synonymous with B's "this is flaming rancid goat barf". (And axiomatic though it seems to be to you, in my experience saying "flaming rancid goat barf" is not useful evidence of unwillingness to learn and teach.) Both A and B are useful as long as they're reasonably reliably correct. Much bigger problems are C who says "this is a good effort" about everything, and D who flips between praise and condemnation based on issues other than technical quality (randomness, politics, mood swings, whatever).
mgkimsal 13y ago
Needed to add on to this - without knowing what good code is, you can't learn much from bad code, and likely won't be able to identify it.
mcv 13y ago
I've been programming professionally for over 10 years, and when I see some weird code, I still try to figure out who wrote it and ask him before I change it. Often he admits it's shit and needs to be changed, or he just doesn't know anymore, but sometimes there was actually a very good reason for doing it like that. Those few times make it worth to never judge too early. Blindly assuming you know better is arrogant and will inevitably lead to problems. Discussing the underlying reasons will almost always teach you something.