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They just don't want to, and we cannot help but wonder why. The risk of complaints, refunds, and chargebacks for non-delivery would be my guess. "Please provi

They just don't want to, and we cannot help but wonder why. The risk of complaints, refunds, and chargebacks for non-delivery would be my guess. "Please provide an itemized budget and your development goal dates for your project" This puts us in an incredibly uncomfortable position... ...of having a roadmap for your product's development. It's really not unreasonable, and if you don't have even a vague idea right now, that's a big warning sign. ... we do not feel that it's remotely in their jurisdiction to ask for a detailed budget of our business Which is unfortunate, as PayPal's business boils down to risk management, and they're asking you to reduce their risk.

HerraBRE 13y ago
Note that they had previously stated that they wanted to release the funds as slowly as possible. Asking us to provide a detailed budget is basically asking us to justify that and give them a timetable so they can withhold the maximum amount of cash for the maximum amount of time.
- mootothemax 13y ago
  Note that they had previously stated that they wanted to release the funds as slowly as possible. Asking us to provide a detailed budget is basically asking us to justify that None of this contradicts my point about mitigating risk, nor that it's a Very Good Idea to have even the most basic of development roadmaps.
  - HerraBRE 13y ago
    Sure, but we have no reason to give those details to PayPal, and very good reasons not to. Edit: Delaying payments by months is not acceptable or reasonable. There are tax implications (we have to deal with multiple jurisdictions) and opportunity costs. Also, this very obviously goes against the wishes of our community of backers - they are supporting a free software development project, not buying a product.
    - mootothemax 13y ago
      Sure, but we have no reason to give those details to PayPal You'll reduce your risk profile, and increase your chances of receiving payment inside the next year. and very good reasons not to Aside from potentially delayed payouts, what are your other good reasons? Edit, replying to your edit: Our community of backers... are supporting a free software development project, not buying a product Do you know for a fact that all of your backers 100% understand the difference? Do you also know for 100% that you will receive no complaints, no refund requests, and no chargebacks in the event that you don't deliver?
      - kalms 13y ago
        I see your point. PayPal is a business partner in this setup, and they are shouldering a lot of risk on the developers behalf. I can understand not wanting to share something as intimate as a business/developement plan, but PayPal is within their rights, boty legally and morally, to ask for one. If the developers are having trouble with this, they should find another partner for their venture. (imho) That said, PayPal can be real douchebags. Too many friends, business partners and colleagues has been burnt by them in the past. If you're doing something nonprofit, move elsewhere.
        Xylakant 13y ago
        > but PayPal is within their rights, boty legally and morally No and no. They're a payment provider, a utility, not a partner. They could have stated up front that they want a business plan or could have denied acting as payment provider. They could have demanded the backers to waive their refund rights. I'd even be on their side if they kept a percentage of the funds as security. The backers have a moral right to see a business plan, if any person at all has one. It's their money and they did not give it to paypal so that paypal can collect interest on it, they gave it to mailpile and they collectively are shouldering a much bigger risk than paypal in that transaction.
        jasonlotito 13y ago
- scrabble 13y ago
  When this happens, does PayPal provide interest on the funds that they withhold?
HarrietJones 13y ago
Mailpile sets off alarm bells for me. The web page seems big on promises, and decent webmail isn't the eaiest thing in the world to make a decent UI for. Never mind that it's all wrapped around some kind of seamless background application. I'm doubtful that they'll do what they think they can do. Good luck to them, but I'm unsuprised that paypal has witheld funds.
- ballard 13y ago
  FUD. Every project that's not yet done is a crystal ball of promises until its delivered. IGG and KS have good records so far. And these guys that put their names on this project are highly motivated to deliver.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 13y ago
    "Things don't just happen because Prime Ministers are very keen on them! Neville Chamberlain was very keen on peace!"
- andridk 13y ago
  You're entitled to your opinion. But I've personally met two of three team members. So these or not phantom people, trying to take your money. Paypal doesn't seem to have any problems taking money for "shady" people and just refusing to pay out. In my mind, that makes Paypal shady - and not the people that use it.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    > So these or not phantom people, trying to take your money. Well Paypal doesn't stay in business on trusting the reputation of one or two people at a time. Trust simply doesn't scale like that. So while I or you personally might not worry about this, Paypal would still have to look at this through their dispassionate business case microscope to evaluate how risky the situation looks.

HerraBRE 13y ago

Note that they had previously stated that they wanted to release the funds as slowly as possible. Asking us to provide a detailed budget is basically asking us to justify that and give them a timetable so they can withhold the maximum amount of cash for the maximum amount of time.

mootothemax 13y ago
Note that they had previously stated that they wanted to release the funds as slowly as possible. Asking us to provide a detailed budget is basically asking us to justify that None of this contradicts my point about mitigating risk, nor that it's a Very Good Idea to have even the most basic of development roadmaps.
- HerraBRE 13y ago
  Sure, but we have no reason to give those details to PayPal, and very good reasons not to. Edit: Delaying payments by months is not acceptable or reasonable. There are tax implications (we have to deal with multiple jurisdictions) and opportunity costs. Also, this very obviously goes against the wishes of our community of backers - they are supporting a free software development project, not buying a product.
  - mootothemax 13y ago
    Sure, but we have no reason to give those details to PayPal You'll reduce your risk profile, and increase your chances of receiving payment inside the next year. and very good reasons not to Aside from potentially delayed payouts, what are your other good reasons? Edit, replying to your edit: Our community of backers... are supporting a free software development project, not buying a product Do you know for a fact that all of your backers 100% understand the difference? Do you also know for 100% that you will receive no complaints, no refund requests, and no chargebacks in the event that you don't deliver?
    - kalms 13y ago
      I see your point. PayPal is a business partner in this setup, and they are shouldering a lot of risk on the developers behalf. I can understand not wanting to share something as intimate as a business/developement plan, but PayPal is within their rights, boty legally and morally, to ask for one. If the developers are having trouble with this, they should find another partner for their venture. (imho) That said, PayPal can be real douchebags. Too many friends, business partners and colleagues has been burnt by them in the past. If you're doing something nonprofit, move elsewhere.
      - Xylakant 13y ago
        > but PayPal is within their rights, boty legally and morally No and no. They're a payment provider, a utility, not a partner. They could have stated up front that they want a business plan or could have denied acting as payment provider. They could have demanded the backers to waive their refund rights. I'd even be on their side if they kept a percentage of the funds as security. The backers have a moral right to see a business plan, if any person at all has one. It's their money and they did not give it to paypal so that paypal can collect interest on it, they gave it to mailpile and they collectively are shouldering a much bigger risk than paypal in that transaction.
        jasonlotito 13y ago
scrabble 13y ago
When this happens, does PayPal provide interest on the funds that they withhold?

HarrietJones 13y ago

Mailpile sets off alarm bells for me. The web page seems big on promises, and decent webmail isn't the eaiest thing in the world to make a decent UI for. Never mind that it's all wrapped around some kind of seamless background application. I'm doubtful that they'll do what they think they can do. Good luck to them, but I'm unsuprised that paypal has witheld funds.

ballard 13y ago
FUD. Every project that's not yet done is a crystal ball of promises until its delivered. IGG and KS have good records so far. And these guys that put their names on this project are highly motivated to deliver.
- TazeTSchnitzel 13y ago
  "Things don't just happen because Prime Ministers are very keen on them! Neville Chamberlain was very keen on peace!"
andridk 13y ago
You're entitled to your opinion. But I've personally met two of three team members. So these or not phantom people, trying to take your money. Paypal doesn't seem to have any problems taking money for "shady" people and just refusing to pay out. In my mind, that makes Paypal shady - and not the people that use it.
- mpyne 13y ago
  > So these or not phantom people, trying to take your money. Well Paypal doesn't stay in business on trusting the reputation of one or two people at a time. Trust simply doesn't scale like that. So while I or you personally might not worry about this, Paypal would still have to look at this through their dispassionate business case microscope to evaluate how risky the situation looks.