10 ms·

In my experience, the only people who say this (and it's been said before) are countries who provide the H1B workforce, and the companies who hire them on the c

In my experience, the only people who say this (and it's been said before) are countries who provide the H1B workforce, and the companies who hire them on the cheap.

nostrademons 17y ago
And in my experience, the only people who say that are developers whose skill levels aren't quite what they perceive them to be.
- zaidf 17y ago
  (1) What do you think about the companies paying less-than-average salaries to H1B employees, thus bringing down the general salary of the American programmer? To the H1B employees it is acceptable given even the sub-par salary is a significant raise to their salary in their home country. And if it is not acceptable, they seldom complain given the obvious fear of being sent back. Look, I have no problem with American programmers having to compete in a global market. But if you are going to bring programmers in MY country, you should pay the market price of MY country. OR if you don't want to, then keep them in their home country. The goal of H1B is to fill in a shortage of qualified labor. Bringing down the salary of an industry is not a goal. (2) What do you think of the well-documented practice of companies going to great lengths to skirt around the H1B advertising process?
  - alecco 17y ago
    Thanks to the H1B blocks thousands of jobs switched from US to my country. Same with UK. I can't stress this enough, THANK YOU. (BTW you guys are welcome to [] my country and have a much better quality of life for similar positions.) Regards, Argentina & friends. Edit: minor style.
    - zaidf 17y ago
      You are ok if all of Haiti moved into your country, took jobs at a salary lower than people in Argentina and caused tonnes of ARGENTINEAN people to become unemployed?
      - alecco 17y ago
        We are one of the countries with the largest immigration in the world if you consider immigrants per-capita. This is consistent with our history, we used to be a favorite destination for Europeans a hundred years ago and now for fellow Latin Americans. There are always some right wing idiots complaining, but most of the country welcomes immigrants. Also in the last couple of years we are again a favorite destination for Europeans, you see them everywhere and not just as tourists. More info, but a bit outdated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_in_Argentina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_in_Argentina "Nearly a million permanent residency applications were filed from 2000 to 2008[]" And we are just about 40 million. :)
  - daleharvey 17y ago
    thats how competing in global economies work, if someone can do your work for cheaper, thats what its worth. companies bringing in people on h1b visas could always triple the salary for the positions they are filling, pretty sure they wouldnt have problems finding a good american to fill the spot then, but then they become uncompetitive. I thought the salary difference was mostly to cover moving and visa expenses anyway?
    - zaidf 17y ago
      thats how competing in global economies work, if someone can do your work for cheaper, thats what its worth. I agree with that...until you do that in YOUR country. From your definition, you would be ok with moving all of India to US and working at lower costs leaving zero jobs for the people here. That is ridiculous. I have defended outsourcing OUT of the US ruthlessly. ie. if an American IN America is doing something for 80,000 and his job can be done for $10,000 in India, it is 100% fine to send that job to India. But it is not fine to bring that guy INTO America BECAUSE he is cheaper. Neither is that the purpose of H1B. I thought the salary difference was mostly to cover moving and visa expenses anyway? Untrue. Read around.
  - nostrademons 17y ago
    1) In my view, the problem is that there are too many restrictions on H1Bs, not too few. Notably, they should be able to switch employers without being deported (I guess they can now, but I've heard the time window to get a new employer to pick up your sponsorship is ridiculously short, and the amount of red tape your new employer has to cut through is considerable). This would cut the competitive disadvantage that an H1B has because they're effectively locked in to one employer, which would raise their salaries up to the market price. 2.) I'm all for it, because it recognizes that programmers are not interchangeable. I find it ironic that the same people who complain about employers treating them like interchangeable cogs in a wheel then turn around and argue that H1Bs are taking jobs away from them, which implies that they are interchangeable cogs in a wheel. One or the other, man - either you are a beautiful unique snowflake, in which case you have nothing to worry about from H1B competition, or you aren't, and should worry about becoming one because you're screwed wage-wise anyway. Your post has also touched on a couple pet peeves on mine, which are: 3) I find it disconcerting that after all the time I've spent with computers, one of the biggest factors in my career is still that I was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts. There're many Indian or Chinese programmers who study for years - since they're little kids - so that they can do well on the college entrance exams, get into IIT or Chinghua, and then emigrate to the United States in a reasonably high-paying tech field. It seems vaguely un-American that being an American trumps smarts, hard-work, and prudent risk-taking. 4) What's with this deification of a particular price level ("should pay he market price of MY country")? I see this with home and stock market prices too - people assume that whatever the high is what prices should always be, and will go to great levels to keep them from going down. The market price is a signal - it tells you whether there is currently more supply for an industry than demand. If there is, perhaps you should adjust your behavior accordingly (eg. find a different subspecialty) instead of complaining about wages falling.
    - zaidf 17y ago
      By your logic, all the folks that pickup trash in India should be allowed to move to America and work at a cheaper price than Americans. I am guessing you are also not in favor of the idea immigration, preferring instead a world where anyone can go and work anywhere. Notably, they should be able to switch employers without being deported Agree. That would fix a lot of the issues. But good luck trying to get that through the corporate-backed H1B lobby that thrives on the uncompetitive nature of H1B. H1Bs are taking jobs away from them, which implies that they are interchangeable cogs In most cases where I have heard that argument, it is someone arguing that their job can't be outsourced out of America. They seem to be right if you have to bring the H1Bs into America to replace them. If you can replace Tom in Cambridge's job with someone in Delhi, I have no problem with that. one of the biggest factors in my career is still that I was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts The solution to that is not to import someone who is willing to work less expensively into your country to replace you. And regardless, the idea behind H1B was never to create "fairness" between the haves and the have-nots. The goal of H1B is a selfish one: to help America. If it is not doing that, it's time to reconsider. If you want an H1B-like visa to address the disparity between the Indian and the American developer, have a debate in Congress and create a new category(some would argue we already have many, ie. the green card lottery). The market price is a signal - it tells you whether there is currently more supply for an industry than demand. Agree, but that assumes the market is open and fair. With H1Bs it is not as you yourself point out in your first point.

In my experience, the only people who say this (and it's been said before) are countries who provide the H1B workforce, and the companies who hire them on the cheap.

nostrademons 17y ago

And in my experience, the only people who say that are developers whose skill levels aren't quite what they perceive them to be.

zaidf 17y ago
(1) What do you think about the companies paying less-than-average salaries to H1B employees, thus bringing down the general salary of the American programmer? To the H1B employees it is acceptable given even the sub-par salary is a significant raise to their salary in their home country. And if it is not acceptable, they seldom complain given the obvious fear of being sent back. Look, I have no problem with American programmers having to compete in a global market. But if you are going to bring programmers in MY country, you should pay the market price of MY country. OR if you don't want to, then keep them in their home country. The goal of H1B is to fill in a shortage of qualified labor. Bringing down the salary of an industry is not a goal. (2) What do you think of the well-documented practice of companies going to great lengths to skirt around the H1B advertising process?
- alecco 17y ago
  Thanks to the H1B blocks thousands of jobs switched from US to my country. Same with UK. I can't stress this enough, THANK YOU. (BTW you guys are welcome to [] my country and have a much better quality of life for similar positions.) Regards, Argentina & friends. Edit: minor style.
  - zaidf 17y ago
    You are ok if all of Haiti moved into your country, took jobs at a salary lower than people in Argentina and caused tonnes of ARGENTINEAN people to become unemployed?
    - alecco 17y ago
      We are one of the countries with the largest immigration in the world if you consider immigrants per-capita. This is consistent with our history, we used to be a favorite destination for Europeans a hundred years ago and now for fellow Latin Americans. There are always some right wing idiots complaining, but most of the country welcomes immigrants. Also in the last couple of years we are again a favorite destination for Europeans, you see them everywhere and not just as tourists. More info, but a bit outdated: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_in_Argentina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_in_Argentina "Nearly a million permanent residency applications were filed from 2000 to 2008[]" And we are just about 40 million. :)
- daleharvey 17y ago
  thats how competing in global economies work, if someone can do your work for cheaper, thats what its worth. companies bringing in people on h1b visas could always triple the salary for the positions they are filling, pretty sure they wouldnt have problems finding a good american to fill the spot then, but then they become uncompetitive. I thought the salary difference was mostly to cover moving and visa expenses anyway?
  - zaidf 17y ago
    thats how competing in global economies work, if someone can do your work for cheaper, thats what its worth. I agree with that...until you do that in YOUR country. From your definition, you would be ok with moving all of India to US and working at lower costs leaving zero jobs for the people here. That is ridiculous. I have defended outsourcing OUT of the US ruthlessly. ie. if an American IN America is doing something for 80,000 and his job can be done for $10,000 in India, it is 100% fine to send that job to India. But it is not fine to bring that guy INTO America BECAUSE he is cheaper. Neither is that the purpose of H1B. I thought the salary difference was mostly to cover moving and visa expenses anyway? Untrue. Read around.
- nostrademons 17y ago
  1) In my view, the problem is that there are too many restrictions on H1Bs, not too few. Notably, they should be able to switch employers without being deported (I guess they can now, but I've heard the time window to get a new employer to pick up your sponsorship is ridiculously short, and the amount of red tape your new employer has to cut through is considerable). This would cut the competitive disadvantage that an H1B has because they're effectively locked in to one employer, which would raise their salaries up to the market price. 2.) I'm all for it, because it recognizes that programmers are not interchangeable. I find it ironic that the same people who complain about employers treating them like interchangeable cogs in a wheel then turn around and argue that H1Bs are taking jobs away from them, which implies that they are interchangeable cogs in a wheel. One or the other, man - either you are a beautiful unique snowflake, in which case you have nothing to worry about from H1B competition, or you aren't, and should worry about becoming one because you're screwed wage-wise anyway. Your post has also touched on a couple pet peeves on mine, which are: 3) I find it disconcerting that after all the time I've spent with computers, one of the biggest factors in my career is still that I was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts. There're many Indian or Chinese programmers who study for years - since they're little kids - so that they can do well on the college entrance exams, get into IIT or Chinghua, and then emigrate to the United States in a reasonably high-paying tech field. It seems vaguely un-American that being an American trumps smarts, hard-work, and prudent risk-taking. 4) What's with this deification of a particular price level ("should pay he market price of MY country")? I see this with home and stock market prices too - people assume that whatever the high is what prices should always be, and will go to great levels to keep them from going down. The market price is a signal - it tells you whether there is currently more supply for an industry than demand. If there is, perhaps you should adjust your behavior accordingly (eg. find a different subspecialty) instead of complaining about wages falling.
  - zaidf 17y ago
    By your logic, all the folks that pickup trash in India should be allowed to move to America and work at a cheaper price than Americans. I am guessing you are also not in favor of the idea immigration, preferring instead a world where anyone can go and work anywhere. Notably, they should be able to switch employers without being deported Agree. That would fix a lot of the issues. But good luck trying to get that through the corporate-backed H1B lobby that thrives on the uncompetitive nature of H1B. H1Bs are taking jobs away from them, which implies that they are interchangeable cogs In most cases where I have heard that argument, it is someone arguing that their job can't be outsourced out of America. They seem to be right if you have to bring the H1Bs into America to replace them. If you can replace Tom in Cambridge's job with someone in Delhi, I have no problem with that. one of the biggest factors in my career is still that I was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts The solution to that is not to import someone who is willing to work less expensively into your country to replace you. And regardless, the idea behind H1B was never to create "fairness" between the haves and the have-nots. The goal of H1B is a selfish one: to help America. If it is not doing that, it's time to reconsider. If you want an H1B-like visa to address the disparity between the Indian and the American developer, have a debate in Congress and create a new category(some would argue we already have many, ie. the green card lottery). The market price is a signal - it tells you whether there is currently more supply for an industry than demand. Agree, but that assumes the market is open and fair. With H1Bs it is not as you yourself point out in your first point.