6 ms·

H1B restrictions would choke US of talent

8 points by nreece 17y ago

zaidf 17y ago
Somehow I doubt it. I don't think the situation is as black and white as the headline and outsourcing companies would like you to believe.
- alecco 17y ago
  I don't like any of the big outsourcing corporations but this is hard fact. Just check the amount of IT jobs moved out of US in the last 6 months. Also it's not just about the cost of employees. The "seat" costs in US are usually more significant than salary. Blocking visas is suicidal. And it was already broken. For example, I refused a little while ago an H1B job because among other things I would hate to feel like an underclass non-citizen worker. Screw that! Edit: minor style.
  - plinkplonk 17y ago
    " I refused a little while ago an H1B job because among other things I would hate to feel like an underclass non-citizen worker." Amen Brother! The last time I worked in the Indian IT industry, I flat out refused to apply for an H1 visa. This was few years ago but the HR folks (who take care of the visa applications) still haven't recovered from the shock of encountering someone who did not want to go to the USA on an H1.
  - zaidf 17y ago
    Just check the amount of IT jobs moved out of US in the last 6 months. That is 100% fine. Move the job out! But don't move the job INTO the U.S, underpay the H1Bs, and bring the rest of America's salary down. If H1Bs want to compete with Americans, they should do it in their own home...not by coming to America. FYI the goal of H1Bs was to help America with skilled labor not available here. The goal was NOT to replace Americans at work with Indians. (I have no problem with American jobs being replaced with Indians so long as they stay in India)
pixelbath 17y ago
In my experience, the only people who say this (and it's been said before) are countries who provide the H1B workforce, and the companies who hire them on the cheap.
- nostrademons 17y ago
  And in my experience, the only people who say that are developers whose skill levels aren't quite what they perceive them to be.
  - zaidf 17y ago
    (1) What do you think about the companies paying less-than-average salaries to H1B employees, thus bringing down the general salary of the American programmer? To the H1B employees it is acceptable given even the sub-par salary is a significant raise to their salary in their home country. And if it is not acceptable, they seldom complain given the obvious fear of being sent back. Look, I have no problem with American programmers having to compete in a global market. But if you are going to bring programmers in MY country, you should pay the market price of MY country. OR if you don't want to, then keep them in their home country. The goal of H1B is to fill in a shortage of qualified labor. Bringing down the salary of an industry is not a goal. (2) What do you think of the well-documented practice of companies going to great lengths to skirt around the H1B advertising process?
    - alecco 17y ago
      Thanks to the H1B blocks thousands of jobs switched from US to my country. Same with UK. I can't stress this enough, THANK YOU. (BTW you guys are welcome to [] my country and have a much better quality of life for similar positions.) Regards, Argentina & friends. Edit: minor style.
      - zaidf 17y ago
        You are ok if all of Haiti moved into your country, took jobs at a salary lower than people in Argentina and caused tonnes of ARGENTINEAN people to become unemployed?
d0mine 17y ago
A must-read on the subject - "Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage" http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html
- mahmud 17y ago
  The publication date on that paper is 1998, with an update in 2002: Don't you think the economic climate has changed since? (admittedly in support of your argument; but still, we might be due for another research.)
  - d0mine 17y ago
    What is H1B for an employer: a young cheap worker putting long-hours for a company he can't leave for a few years in most cases. It was true in 1998, it is true now.
- ilkhd2 17y ago
  Great article. Thanks. Applicable to many other domains as much as to the one of the article.
- Locke1689 17y ago
  This is a really great article. Take a look at these statistics "However, outside of these subsegments, programmer salaries are not rising rapidly. Bureau of Labor Statistics data show that salaries of programmers overall - i.e. combining the ones who have currently-``hot'' skills and the ``ordinary'' programmers - rose about 7% in 1997. _If employers were desperate to hire, as they claim, they would certainly be willing to pay a premium of more than 7%._"
eugenejen 17y ago
U.S. should just grant talented people green cards without employer sponsorship. The problem for current immigration law is for a talented person (of course, what is the legal standard for "being talented" is another discussion) who wants to work in U.S., unless he/she has an employer, or she/he has more than 1 million dollars to invest. He/She can only get a green card by marriage. And legally, a people who has no green card can not start any S-corp/LLC to hire her/himself. So a talented person without U.S. spouse and 1 million dollars and employer in U.S. has no way to get a green card, even he is fully capable of starting a start up with less than 1 million dollars by him/herself and grow it up to hire more Americans in 5 years. And H-1B is not the solution to attract talented people by asking them to work as "indenture servants" in face of possible layoff and ask to leave the country in 10 days after layoff.
- ilkhd2 17y ago
  Who is going to take the burden of verifying who is talented and who is not?
  - known 17y ago
    http://tr.im/lfya http://tr.im/lfya
  - ardit33 17y ago
    The same people that scream against H-1B. The ACM!! Every year they throw a contest about programming, where most schools in the US, and many in the world participate. http://cm2prod.baylor.edu/welcome.icpc http://cm2prod.baylor.edu/welcome.icpc I did, back in the day, and it is pure programming talent contest, there is no way you can cheat to it, or fake it. If you do really well in it, you ARE a really good programmer. If you score, let's say, top 30% on that contest, you should be stapled a green card and come here, IF you want to. For many years, there was University of Petersburg (Russia), would win the contest. A lot of these kids would get jobs from IBM, or MS. I'd say lets staple them a green card, and make them work for who the fuck they want, and maybe they create a startup, or join one, and hire even more middle/average americans also. Remember, a lot of startups have limited resources to deal with visa/green card sponsorship, so they can't afford to hire some of these bright guys. If they were allowed to work for whatever they wanted to, then they probably would benefit a lot of startup that needs really great talent (which might get wasted in a large company). it is a win win situation. But no, ACM and it's cousin, the EEC, are just taken over by bigots. If, they had their say, they would close the borders completely. Well, accidentally, they have deviced a really good way to find out good programmers, from a bad one. If you say this country has enough smart people, and it doesn't need more, i say you are full of shit. Economic opportunity is not a zero sum game. If you give more people the ability to 'be all they can be', without visa restriction bullshit, then there is more human potential to be unleashed, and utilized for the best. If you want your country to look more like Detroit, or Alabama, then close your borders...
pj 17y ago
It's funny to read this article, considering the teaching children to argue article at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=632518 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=632518 Logos: What's that compared to 9 per cent unemployment on a total labour force of 100 million? Ethos: Obama "is too sensible to pass it. He's too mature" Pathos: you'll generate a trade war with countries such as India, among others... The arguments from Premji are heavy on the pathos and light on the logos... Cui Bono?
ilkhd2 17y ago
There is one overlooked problem: people who leave there own countries - they do not contribute to the development of their motherlands. Even if they send money back to relativies, the do not engage in social life. There hundreds of social poblems in India, dalits fo example the need a lot of social momentum to solve them. Smart people leave nobody would fight. Second - c'mon, are you going to beleive Indian sources when the are talking about H1B...It's like beleiving Fox news.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
known 17y ago
I think the presence of H1B Engineers will create more jobs in America.
kvs 17y ago
One simple albeit temporary fix: Make H1Bs independent of sponsoring employer. Give those people freedom to float around like the rest of us and see how things turn out. My guess is employers will have to start treating H1Bs as they treat others and that should change the economics on them to reduce H1B abuse.
mullr 17y ago
Wipro? Kind of a biased party. My group at MegaCorp has hired an army of testers from Wipro. (they're generally competent within their job description, which is about all you can ask of any consulting company) Anyway, the point is that Wipro is in the business of providing cheap bodies to large companies. That's what they do. (one of the many things they do, actually) Of course they don't like visa restrictions. Interesting point about my group's work with Wipro: even if we wanted to hire such a number of people from the US, we probably couldn't. It would be too expensive and they would be hard to find. BUT, hiring an army of testers was a terrible idea in the first place. It was a bad solution to the problem. 2 clever people with the license to act couldn't solved the same problem for a fraction of the cost, with better results. So I wonder if this kind of labor acquisition is needed only by dysfunctional companies? Hard to generalize from a single sample, but interesting to consider.
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
dmly 17y ago
so would India outsource its work to say Sri Lanka??

8 points by nreece 17y ago

zaidf 17y ago

Somehow I doubt it. I don't think the situation is as black and white as the headline and outsourcing companies would like you to believe.

alecco 17y ago
I don't like any of the big outsourcing corporations but this is hard fact. Just check the amount of IT jobs moved out of US in the last 6 months. Also it's not just about the cost of employees. The "seat" costs in US are usually more significant than salary. Blocking visas is suicidal. And it was already broken. For example, I refused a little while ago an H1B job because among other things I would hate to feel like an underclass non-citizen worker. Screw that! Edit: minor style.
- plinkplonk 17y ago
  " I refused a little while ago an H1B job because among other things I would hate to feel like an underclass non-citizen worker." Amen Brother! The last time I worked in the Indian IT industry, I flat out refused to apply for an H1 visa. This was few years ago but the HR folks (who take care of the visa applications) still haven't recovered from the shock of encountering someone who did not want to go to the USA on an H1.
- zaidf 17y ago
  Just check the amount of IT jobs moved out of US in the last 6 months. That is 100% fine. Move the job out! But don't move the job INTO the U.S, underpay the H1Bs, and bring the rest of America's salary down. If H1Bs want to compete with Americans, they should do it in their own home...not by coming to America. FYI the goal of H1Bs was to help America with skilled labor not available here. The goal was NOT to replace Americans at work with Indians. (I have no problem with American jobs being replaced with Indians so long as they stay in India)

pixelbath 17y ago

In my experience, the only people who say this (and it's been said before) are countries who provide the H1B workforce, and the companies who hire them on the cheap.

nostrademons 17y ago
And in my experience, the only people who say that are developers whose skill levels aren't quite what they perceive them to be.
- zaidf 17y ago
  (1) What do you think about the companies paying less-than-average salaries to H1B employees, thus bringing down the general salary of the American programmer? To the H1B employees it is acceptable given even the sub-par salary is a significant raise to their salary in their home country. And if it is not acceptable, they seldom complain given the obvious fear of being sent back. Look, I have no problem with American programmers having to compete in a global market. But if you are going to bring programmers in MY country, you should pay the market price of MY country. OR if you don't want to, then keep them in their home country. The goal of H1B is to fill in a shortage of qualified labor. Bringing down the salary of an industry is not a goal. (2) What do you think of the well-documented practice of companies going to great lengths to skirt around the H1B advertising process?
  - alecco 17y ago
    Thanks to the H1B blocks thousands of jobs switched from US to my country. Same with UK. I can't stress this enough, THANK YOU. (BTW you guys are welcome to [] my country and have a much better quality of life for similar positions.) Regards, Argentina & friends. Edit: minor style.
    - zaidf 17y ago
      You are ok if all of Haiti moved into your country, took jobs at a salary lower than people in Argentina and caused tonnes of ARGENTINEAN people to become unemployed?

d0mine 17y ago

A must-read on the subject - "Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage" http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html

mahmud 17y ago
The publication date on that paper is 1998, with an update in 2002: Don't you think the economic climate has changed since? (admittedly in support of your argument; but still, we might be due for another research.)
- d0mine 17y ago
  What is H1B for an employer: a young cheap worker putting long-hours for a company he can't leave for a few years in most cases. It was true in 1998, it is true now.
ilkhd2 17y ago
Great article. Thanks. Applicable to many other domains as much as to the one of the article.
Locke1689 17y ago
This is a really great article. Take a look at these statistics "However, outside of these subsegments, programmer salaries are not rising rapidly. Bureau of Labor Statistics data show that salaries of programmers overall - i.e. combining the ones who have currently-``hot'' skills and the ``ordinary'' programmers - rose about 7% in 1997. _If employers were desperate to hire, as they claim, they would certainly be willing to pay a premium of more than 7%._"

eugenejen 17y ago

U.S. should just grant talented people green cards without employer sponsorship. The problem for current immigration law is for a talented person (of course, what is the legal standard for "being talented" is another discussion) who wants to work in U.S., unless he/she has an employer, or she/he has more than 1 million dollars to invest. He/She can only get a green card by marriage. And legally, a people who has no green card can not start any S-corp/LLC to hire her/himself. So a talented person without U.S. spouse and 1 million dollars and employer in U.S. has no way to get a green card, even he is fully capable of starting a start up with less than 1 million dollars by him/herself and grow it up to hire more Americans in 5 years. And H-1B is not the solution to attract talented people by asking them to work as "indenture servants" in face of possible layoff and ask to leave the country in 10 days after layoff.

ilkhd2 17y ago
Who is going to take the burden of verifying who is talented and who is not?
- known 17y ago
  http://tr.im/lfya http://tr.im/lfya
- ardit33 17y ago
  The same people that scream against H-1B. The ACM!! Every year they throw a contest about programming, where most schools in the US, and many in the world participate. http://cm2prod.baylor.edu/welcome.icpc http://cm2prod.baylor.edu/welcome.icpc I did, back in the day, and it is pure programming talent contest, there is no way you can cheat to it, or fake it. If you do really well in it, you ARE a really good programmer. If you score, let's say, top 30% on that contest, you should be stapled a green card and come here, IF you want to. For many years, there was University of Petersburg (Russia), would win the contest. A lot of these kids would get jobs from IBM, or MS. I'd say lets staple them a green card, and make them work for who the fuck they want, and maybe they create a startup, or join one, and hire even more middle/average americans also. Remember, a lot of startups have limited resources to deal with visa/green card sponsorship, so they can't afford to hire some of these bright guys. If they were allowed to work for whatever they wanted to, then they probably would benefit a lot of startup that needs really great talent (which might get wasted in a large company). it is a win win situation. But no, ACM and it's cousin, the EEC, are just taken over by bigots. If, they had their say, they would close the borders completely. Well, accidentally, they have deviced a really good way to find out good programmers, from a bad one. If you say this country has enough smart people, and it doesn't need more, i say you are full of shit. Economic opportunity is not a zero sum game. If you give more people the ability to 'be all they can be', without visa restriction bullshit, then there is more human potential to be unleashed, and utilized for the best. If you want your country to look more like Detroit, or Alabama, then close your borders...

pj 17y ago

It's funny to read this article, considering the teaching children to argue article at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=632518 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=632518 Logos: What's that compared to 9 per cent unemployment on a total labour force of 100 million? Ethos: Obama "is too sensible to pass it. He's too mature" Pathos: you'll generate a trade war with countries such as India, among others... The arguments from Premji are heavy on the pathos and light on the logos... Cui Bono?

ilkhd2 17y ago

There is one overlooked problem: people who leave there own countries - they do not contribute to the development of their motherlands. Even if they send money back to relativies, the do not engage in social life. There hundreds of social poblems in India, dalits fo example the need a lot of social momentum to solve them. Smart people leave nobody would fight. Second - c'mon, are you going to beleive Indian sources when the are talking about H1B...It's like beleiving Fox news.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

known 17y ago

I think the presence of H1B Engineers will create more jobs in America.

kvs 17y ago

One simple albeit temporary fix: Make H1Bs independent of sponsoring employer. Give those people freedom to float around like the rest of us and see how things turn out. My guess is employers will have to start treating H1Bs as they treat others and that should change the economics on them to reduce H1B abuse.

mullr 17y ago

Wipro? Kind of a biased party. My group at MegaCorp has hired an army of testers from Wipro. (they're generally competent within their job description, which is about all you can ask of any consulting company) Anyway, the point is that Wipro is in the business of providing cheap bodies to large companies. That's what they do. (one of the many things they do, actually) Of course they don't like visa restrictions. Interesting point about my group's work with Wipro: even if we wanted to hire such a number of people from the US, we probably couldn't. It would be too expensive and they would be hard to find. BUT, hiring an army of testers was a terrible idea in the first place. It was a bad solution to the problem. 2 clever people with the license to act couldn't solved the same problem for a fraction of the cost, with better results. So I wonder if this kind of labor acquisition is needed only by dysfunctional companies? Hard to generalize from a single sample, but interesting to consider.

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

dmly 17y ago

so would India outsource its work to say Sri Lanka??