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NSA Spying Documents to be Released As Result of EFF Lawsuit
- deerpig 13y agoI wonder if big chunks of it will be redacted....
- perlpimp 13y agoIANAL, wonder what does FIOA ruling entitles you to? can the government redact everything except one sentence? Just wondering.
- ics 13y agoYes. https://www.eff.org/sites/default/files/images_insert/FISC%203.png https://www.eff.org/sites/default/files/images_insert/FISC%2... Edit: 4th paragraph for another example. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/eff-victory-results-expected-release-secret-court-opinion-finding-nsa-surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/eff-victory-results-ex...
- Samuel_Michon 13y agoI can’t help but think that whatever gets released will be utterly worthless. We’ll have to wait and see, but if government agencies don’t want to let the public in on what they’re doing, they usually find a way.
- glitchdout 13y agoWell, these are the documents the NSA handed to Germany: https://twitter.com/ThomasOppermann/status/374966102788292609 https://twitter.com/ThomasOppermann/status/37496610278829260... Complete docs: http://www.dni.gov/files/documents/Joint%20Statement%20FAA%20Reauthorization%20Hearing%20-%20December%202011.pdf http://www.dni.gov/files/documents/Joint%20Statement%20FAA%2...
- coldcode 13y agoMy first thought, 100s of pages all in black.
- devx 13y agoCongress should be following Bruce Schneier's advice, and appoint a special independent prosecutor with full powers to see everything that's happening within NSA, and to be able to take confessions from NSA employees, without them fearing repercussions. The NSA needs to be reined it, and it needs a full audit. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/09/the-only-way-to-restore-trust-in-the-nsa/279314/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/09/the-only...
- mf322n3 13y agoOh, to be so naive. You're assuming Congress opposes the actions of the NSA. It's possible for a Member of Congress to express public outrage to appease the idiot mob, but believe something else entirely in private.
- meddlepal 13y agoWhy would congress want to do that? They approved all this and they don't seem interested at all in stopping it.
- Amadou 13y agoNo, they didn't approve it. Jim Sensenbrenner, Author of the PATRIOT Act, has himself said that the presidents' interpretation are an abuse of the law. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/09/abuse-patriot-act-must-end http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/09/abuse-pa... If the guy who wrote the law says, "that is not what I meant" it is pretty clear that what congress voted for and what they got are two different things.
- rainsford 13y agoHe's just one congressman and, author of the PATRIOT Act or not, he doesn't necessarily speak for all of Congress. And in any case he's just talking about one particular program (which, perhaps tellingly, is the only one there seems to be any serious debate in congress about).
- mpyne 13y ago
- ChrisAntaki 13y agoEFF continues to impress.
- frankblizzard 13y agohttps://supporters.eff.org/donate https://supporters.eff.org/donate
- einhverfr 13y agoI have noticed that the ACLU has a tendency of making dubious choices when they run into a conflict between agendas (i.e. supporting corporate free speech in Citizens United and then opposing the same in Elaine Photography v. Willock. The EFF seems to have fewer qualms defending enumerated civil liberties online. I have come to really appreciate the EFF. I won't donate to political candidates. I will donate to the EFF what I might have donated to political candidates....
- ewillbefull 13y ago> supporting corporate free speech in Citizens United and then opposing the same in Elaine Photography v. Willock These two cases are completely different. One is about a non-profit being prohibited from speaking about a candidate before a primary election, and the other is about discrimination by a commercial service.
- rayiner 13y agoIts a tough case. On one hand its a commercial service, which always gets less speech protection. On the other hand photography is art.
- einhverfr 13y agoAdditionally suppose what was at issue was a slogan printed on every wedding photograph which was clearly discriminatory because it was also political. Something like, "One man. One woman. One holy marriage." If a photographer does this, you must choose between political speech and non-discrimination because the political speech interferes with a right of a vulnerable group to enjoy their purchased goods. Otherwise where do you draw the line? Or what do you do if a cake decorator insists on a similar slogan on the wedding cake and opposite-sex decorations? Surely this is both political speech and functional discrimination, right? The EFF avoids this by having a narrower focus.
- marijn 13y agoOrganizations like EFF and ACLU are extremely impressive—they are one of the very few effective actors that actually seem to be able to strike blows at the current wave of authoritarian madness. I wish their German and European counterparts managed similar feats.
- bad_alloc 13y agoWho would these counterparts be?
- cyphax 13y agoIn the Netherlands, there's Bits of Freedom for example (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bits_of_Freedom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bits_of_Freedom)
- TheLegace 13y agoOpenMedia in Canada has been successful in changing government positions on Internet regulations(Unlimited Bandwidth). https://openmedia.ca/ https://openmedia.ca/
- jsingleton 13y agoIn the UK: http://www.openrightsgroup.org/ http://www.openrightsgroup.org/
- dannyobrien 13y agoYou can find a great list of European digital rights groups on the EDRi membership page: http://www.edri.org/about/members http://www.edri.org/about/members -- EDRi itself, the European umbrella group, is in itself a really impressive organization, doing a huge amount of campaigning and advocacy in Brussels. If you don't get to hear about their victories so much, it's partly because the US digital space is so well- (or maybe even over-) covered compared to similar battles going on elsewhere. But you can thank groups like this for stopping ACTA, software patents in Europe, as well as endless censorship proposals. They're also doing great work campaigning for the privacy rights of non US persons under the NSA revelations. Here's how to donate to EDRi: http://www.edri.org/about http://www.edri.org/about (Full disclosure: I work for EFF, which is an EDRi member)
- Sagat 13y agoLoud and assertive people get results in today's world. I applaud the EFF and their aggressive legal actions.
- educating 13y agoThe EFF is a great thing, but let's look at what they won: > [O]rders and opinions of the FISC issued from January 1, 2004, to June 6, 2011, that contain a significant legal interpretation of the government’s authority or use of its authority under Section 215; and responsive “significant documents, procedures, or legal analyses incorporated into FISC opinions or orders and treated as binding by the Department of Justice or the National Security Agency.” My interpretation of that is that the results could just include a lot about: "As stated in (some law or regulation) case # (redacted) with regard to (redacted), (redacted) is fully (or not fully) within the rights of the government to do so." So, I'm sure there will be some information there, but it will be about the laws and regulations surrounding what is possible, not about the actions being discussed. And, frankly I've known for years (who hasn't) that our government wants an excessive amount of information about us with the intent to keep us safe and/or dominate the world, so I don't need the EFF or our government to spend much time on this. The EFF should be figuring out what can be patented and what can be free, and our government should be doing what it can to boost our economy in a long-term fashion while ensuring our freedom and safety. If that involves an overreaching security group, so be it.
- einhverfr 13y agoThese are great victories, actually, and the reason why goes back to the decision last term in Amnesty International vs, Clapper. The documents will almost certainly help bolster standing arguments to challenge these programs. Don't sell these victories short. They are important ones.
- angrydev 13y agoThe laws and regulations revealed in this document will be important for targeted action on issues. Whether it was obvious to you that the government was harvesting data on its people for years, we cannot fight what we have no evidence about. With this release, we can actually pick out the laws that we have an issue with, and target them for debate. > our government should be doing what it can to boost our economy in a long-term fashion while ensuring our freedom and safety. If that involves an overreaching security group, so be it. If you trust the government with that much power I suppose this whole issue over surveillance seems quaint to you. Most people however would like to have some input over the powers wielded by their government. Something about a 'for the people, by the people' type thing.
- spodek 13y agoGreat news! Let's put it in context. In a nation of over 300,000,000 people, in which we know several departments of the executive branch are spending billions to spy on the world in gross violation of the Constitution, it seems only one or two people (Snowden and Manning with help from the press), and one or two organizations (EFF and ACLU), are able to make any meaningful progress. The legislative branch has done almost nothing and is largely complicit. The judicial branch has been largely complicit except when motivated by the EFF and ACLU and didn't help with Manning. Same with the press. What's left? What other successes can we build on? What historical models can we learn from? Probably everyone reading this wants to help. Surely we can come up with some way to do something. We can contribute resources to the EFF and ACLU. Frankly, I don't see marching in the streets helpful, but I'd love to be proved wrong. What else? WE'RE TECHNOLOGY ENTREPRENEURS! We claim to understand the issues and know how to create and lead teams and marshal resources to meet demand. If any progress is to happen, IT HAS TO START HERE WITH US. What else can we -- you and I -- do? - Can we motivate and support more whistleblowers so future ones don't have to fear jail and persecution? - Can we contribute more time, money, and other resources to the EFF and ACLU? - Can we create new organizations to augment their work? I have to believe we have more ideas in us. What else can we do? Can YOU add to this list?
- rayiner 13y ago> in which we know several departments of the executive branch are spending billions to spy on the world in gross violation of the Constitution, We don't know that at all. The closest thing we have is a FISC opinion which declared certain minimization measures to be unconstitutional which aren't in place any more.
- Mordor 13y agoSupposing the Justice Department has committed a crime: - What laws have been broken? - What individuals broke those laws? - What punishments are appropriate? - Who decides who is guilty? - Who gives out those sentences? - Where will the criminals be held? Additionally, is the President at liberty to override them? If all else fails, would it be possible for the people to set up their own courts outside of the Justice Department for this purpose?
- rayiner 13y agoViolating the Constitution is not a criminal offense, for obvious reasons. When the FEC tried to enforce McCain Feingold in Citizens United, and parts of the law were declared unconstitutional, should the people at the FEC who engaged in the enforcement action have been criminally charged, tried, and punished? Also, the federal courts aren't in the Justice Department, which is a division of the executive branch. They're part of the judiciary, which is a separate co-equal branch.
- reginaldjcooper 13y ago> should the people at the FEC who engaged in the enforcement action have been criminally charged, tried, and punished? Ideally, yes! We would have far fewer "good Germans" for the internet to Godwin about. Pragmatically, no, anyone other than a judge or lawyer cannot be expected to know what is constitutional or not.
- rainsford 13y agoAnd at least as importantly, people outside the judicial branch aren't legally empowered to determine the constitutionality of laws. Allowing the executive branch and its employees to treat laws as unconstitutional, all on their own, would open up a ridiculously large can of worms.
- reginaldjcooper 13y agoOr if it were allowed, they'd have to be criminally liable for not enforcing a constitutional law in addition to being criminally liable for enforcing an unconstitutional law so it would be twice as ridiculous to expect anyone to be capable of doing their jobs.
- rayiner 13y agoThe released information will be legal opinions: "[O]rders and opinions of the FISC issued from January 1, 2004, to June 6, 2011, that contain a significant legal interpretation of the government’s authority or use of its authority under Section 215; and responsive “significant documents, procedures, or legal analyses incorporated into FISC opinions or orders and treated as binding by the Department of Justice or the National Security Agency." This is actually a huge win, because it will show the legal theories underlying the NSA surveillance. This will help us figure out whether the surveillance is Constitutional, and also give insight into what sorts of surveillance is being conducted.
- wil421 13y agoI hope that what they release is actually something can be read in its entirety and not redacted so much you can't read it. http://abcnews.go.com/m/blogEntry?id=19153896&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F http://abcnews.go.com/m/blogEntry?id=19153896&ref=https%3A%2...
- rtconner 13y agoSometimes things happen in America that do make me happy about how this country works.
- bsimpson 13y agoSo many people have accused Ed Snowden of treason, but it seems a lot less likely that this would have happened had he not had the balls to allude to the kinds of spying the federal government has been doing on the world. Thanks Ed, and to all the awesome people at the EFF.
- rhizome 13y agoIf he was actually a capital-t Traitor, the government would not have to release any relevant documents. This is to say that the government's arguments would persist in their strength towards maintaining secrecy, but the fact that these events are transpiring tells me that there is no actual legal support for a treason charge (pace Dianne Feinstein). Otherwise, the NSA itself would be acting against the interests of the nation by doing this, thus themselves be traitors.
- bsimpson 13y agoIn related, but largely unimportant news, the federal government has created a tumblr account to post its surveillance-related propaganda: http://icontherecord.tumblr.com/ http://icontherecord.tumblr.com/ and it's as ugly as anything you've ever seen come out of the federal government. I still can't believe that someone makes those graphics for a living, and still makes them look that bad.