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I have to agree with tokenadult. It may be the circles I run in but the people I know who homeschool do so for the 'There is No Speed Limit' effect rather than

I have to agree with tokenadult. It may be the circles I run in but the people I know who homeschool do so for the 'There is No Speed Limit' effect rather than to indoctrinate their kids with some religious belief or insulate them from ideas that conflict with such religious indoctrination.

saturdayplace 13y ago
Because some may not know the "There is no speed limit" reference: http://sivers.org/kimo http://sivers.org/kimo. It's a great article.
educating 13y ago
Though I appreciate the initiative of those that homeschool, there are only two kinds that I've known: 1. Those that shouldn't be homeschooling because they are not trained as educators, certainly not in all of the subjects they need to teach, but they are religiously conservative to the point of some social withdrawal, and don't want their kids going to public school and being exposed to drugs and liberalism. I've known many people in this category. BTW- I'm somewhat conservative and religious, so when I say they are conservative and religious, I mean really conservative and religious. 2. Those that are so liberal they take their kid on a round the world trip spending all of their life's savings and money from their newly-sold house to do so, homeschooling (some would say no-schooling or light-schooling) during the trip with little support or structure. When they got back they got a lower-paying job and started from ground-zero again, with their kid who disliked the trip and missed months of education. I only know one person in this category. I have never been introduced to a no-speed-limit homeschooler.
- dangoor 13y ago
  Hi, I'm Kevin. Pleased to meet you. Now you know someone who doesn't fit either of those molds :) I'm co-moderator of a secular homeschooling group and your description doesn't really match anyone in our group (20-30 families). There are unschoolers, but there are also people who follow various approaches to varying degrees.
  - educating 13y ago
    Nice to have met you! How many in your group of 20-30 have the qualifications that would allow them to be teachers in every subject that they teach their children if they were to apply for jobs in your public school system? While I believe in your freedom to homeschool your children, why does the public school system have those requirements for their teachers? It isn't only to have the ability to manage kids and parents. While I believe that your group may do an excellent job at educating your students, 84% of 1.5 million students were estimated to be homeschooled only at home as of 2007 according to http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=91 http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=91 , and I doubt that all of them are sufficiently qualified to teach all subjects required in their local public school.
    - euroclydon 13y ago
      I think the evidence would bare out that the qualifications you speak of are not necessary. A typical college educated adult can likely bring a child up to speed on what they need to know from K-12 education. We homeschool, and I don't remember all the nifty rules for short and long vowels, but the books we use have that information.
      - educating 13y ago
        So, you're saying that all of those in our government responsible for determining what requirements are needed for public education are wrong, and that the decades and decades of experience they have in determining what should be required mean nothing? Loads of teachers dedicate themselves to educating themselves as teachers and taking on student loans for no reason and then never say anything about it? It's all just a big lie?
        yimmer 13y ago
        The requirements are partly political, and accurately certifying competence for the number of people required to teach is not a solved problem. Teachers dedicate themselves to teaching for numerous reasons. They don't take on student loans for no reason whatsoever; the credentials they get are part of the price of going into a system with intentional barriers to entry. Don't confuse a system of "reject some of the good, weed out most of the really bad, and usually get ok results" as something which is an entirely accurate indicator of competence. The shortcomings of the current system don't make it a lie, obviously - but putting decades into a process doesn't necessarily make it better, either.
pigscantfly 13y ago
Since the post you replied to actually cited surveys which show that most home schooling occurs for religious reasons, yes, obviously your perception is down to the circles you run in. It's great that some people homeschool their kids well. Most don't.
- icelancer 13y ago
  Because a large portion of religious zealots choose to insulate their kids using Method X, clearly Method X is the problem. This is why logjam's argument is a pure fallacy.
  - prawks 13y ago
    You could also take the viewpoint that 'Method X' is more susceptible to being used as indoctrination whether intentionally or unintentionally. Homeschooling is a slippery slope. For the elite who can manage not sliding down it, I agree with it.
  - ordinary 13y ago
    How about "X does some good, but far more harm, therefore X is a problem"?
    - zdean 13y ago
      No, because X is not static. Today, the religious component (the early adopters) represent a large portion of the entire group (and I would challenge this if you're looking at the homeschooling movement worldwide and not just in the US). But the reality is that the homeschooling movement is dynamic: http://www.topmastersineducation.com/homeschooled/ http://www.topmastersineducation.com/homeschooled/ In time, it's easy to envision the secular population outnumbering the religious. So, to your point, if atheists had been the early adopters in this case, you would support homeschooling. But since the early adopters were religious, you are against it, correct?
      - ikt 13y ago

saturdayplace 13y ago

Because some may not know the "There is no speed limit" reference: http://sivers.org/kimo http://sivers.org/kimo. It's a great article.

educating 13y ago

Though I appreciate the initiative of those that homeschool, there are only two kinds that I've known: 1. Those that shouldn't be homeschooling because they are not trained as educators, certainly not in all of the subjects they need to teach, but they are religiously conservative to the point of some social withdrawal, and don't want their kids going to public school and being exposed to drugs and liberalism. I've known many people in this category. BTW- I'm somewhat conservative and religious, so when I say they are conservative and religious, I mean really conservative and religious. 2. Those that are so liberal they take their kid on a round the world trip spending all of their life's savings and money from their newly-sold house to do so, homeschooling (some would say no-schooling or light-schooling) during the trip with little support or structure. When they got back they got a lower-paying job and started from ground-zero again, with their kid who disliked the trip and missed months of education. I only know one person in this category. I have never been introduced to a no-speed-limit homeschooler.

dangoor 13y ago
Hi, I'm Kevin. Pleased to meet you. Now you know someone who doesn't fit either of those molds :) I'm co-moderator of a secular homeschooling group and your description doesn't really match anyone in our group (20-30 families). There are unschoolers, but there are also people who follow various approaches to varying degrees.
- educating 13y ago
  Nice to have met you! How many in your group of 20-30 have the qualifications that would allow them to be teachers in every subject that they teach their children if they were to apply for jobs in your public school system? While I believe in your freedom to homeschool your children, why does the public school system have those requirements for their teachers? It isn't only to have the ability to manage kids and parents. While I believe that your group may do an excellent job at educating your students, 84% of 1.5 million students were estimated to be homeschooled only at home as of 2007 according to http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=91 http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=91 , and I doubt that all of them are sufficiently qualified to teach all subjects required in their local public school.
  - euroclydon 13y ago
    I think the evidence would bare out that the qualifications you speak of are not necessary. A typical college educated adult can likely bring a child up to speed on what they need to know from K-12 education. We homeschool, and I don't remember all the nifty rules for short and long vowels, but the books we use have that information.
    - educating 13y ago
      So, you're saying that all of those in our government responsible for determining what requirements are needed for public education are wrong, and that the decades and decades of experience they have in determining what should be required mean nothing? Loads of teachers dedicate themselves to educating themselves as teachers and taking on student loans for no reason and then never say anything about it? It's all just a big lie?
      - yimmer 13y ago
        The requirements are partly political, and accurately certifying competence for the number of people required to teach is not a solved problem. Teachers dedicate themselves to teaching for numerous reasons. They don't take on student loans for no reason whatsoever; the credentials they get are part of the price of going into a system with intentional barriers to entry. Don't confuse a system of "reject some of the good, weed out most of the really bad, and usually get ok results" as something which is an entirely accurate indicator of competence. The shortcomings of the current system don't make it a lie, obviously - but putting decades into a process doesn't necessarily make it better, either.

pigscantfly 13y ago

Since the post you replied to actually cited surveys which show that most home schooling occurs for religious reasons, yes, obviously your perception is down to the circles you run in. It's great that some people homeschool their kids well. Most don't.

icelancer 13y ago
Because a large portion of religious zealots choose to insulate their kids using Method X, clearly Method X is the problem. This is why logjam's argument is a pure fallacy.
- prawks 13y ago
  You could also take the viewpoint that 'Method X' is more susceptible to being used as indoctrination whether intentionally or unintentionally. Homeschooling is a slippery slope. For the elite who can manage not sliding down it, I agree with it.
- ordinary 13y ago
  How about "X does some good, but far more harm, therefore X is a problem"?
  - zdean 13y ago
    No, because X is not static. Today, the religious component (the early adopters) represent a large portion of the entire group (and I would challenge this if you're looking at the homeschooling movement worldwide and not just in the US). But the reality is that the homeschooling movement is dynamic: http://www.topmastersineducation.com/homeschooled/ http://www.topmastersineducation.com/homeschooled/ In time, it's easy to envision the secular population outnumbering the religious. So, to your point, if atheists had been the early adopters in this case, you would support homeschooling. But since the early adopters were religious, you are against it, correct?
    - ikt 13y ago