8 ms·

Didn't Get Enough Sleep? You Might As Well Be Drunk

110 points by bparsons 13y ago

dimitar 13y ago
Good: * The idea is pretty interesting; I feel like I'm drunk, but I'm undersleeping the last few months. * The major reason I don't get enough sleep is that I need to binge from time to time to get things done or enjoy life. I think I'll do better if I could track my sleeping needs before I get to feel like I do now Bad: * TA looks like an advertisement * The website uses words like "your workforce". I hope employers stay away from their employees sleep. What's next? Stool samples. Management in many places already likes to treat employees like lab rats or machines to be repaired.
- plorkyeran 13y ago
  > I hope employers stay away from their employees sleep. In theory it could turn out well, if it turned out that the numbers said it was better to pay people to take an hour nap in the middle of the work day. In practice I assume it'd turn out to be more of a mandatory unpaid nap, of course.
  - aliciahatt 13y ago
    Thank you for your input. Upside of employees knowing how the staff sleep overall (nothing to a specific employee) could possibly lead to a better shift schedule and the ability to feel less fatigued in your free time
    - ketralnis 13y ago
      Or it could lead to employers demanding that employees give them all of their alert time rather than more normal hours. "Could possibly lead" isn't really a good reason to start giving up privacy
- aliciahatt 13y ago
  Great thing with your Real-time feedback on the Readiband you are able to tell yourself if how your feel matches up to your bodies fatigue level.
  - dimitar 13y ago
    Exactly. That way I'll know if staying late is worth it. An hour of sleep doesn't "cost" the same at any time.
- patbyrne 13y ago
  I think you might be right except for airlines!!! I wouldn't want to be on a plane with a pilot that doesn't sleep well.
  - JHof 13y ago
    I think pilots wearing Readibands would quickly reveal that a large number of airline pilots are working well into what would be considered a fatigued state.
Swizec 13y ago
Can't remember exact resource right now, but I've been researching sleep deprivation and related topics for a chapter in my book and apparently every hour of sleep deprivation reduces your cognitive performance by roughly 25%. I found that rather fascinating.
- bparsons 13y ago
  Swizec, if you are interested in additional resources for your book, I would be happy to connect you with some folks at Fatigue Science (they have a ton of data on how sleep deprivation contributes to reduced cognition and reaction time), or even hook you up with a two week trial of the Readiband for free.
  - Swizec 13y ago
    Oh man that would be incredibly awesome if you could! My email is swizec@swizec.com, I'm open for talking to anyone who knows this stuff better than I do.
- DoctorHouse 13y ago
  care to elaborate on your book?
  - Swizec 13y ago
    I'm writing a book called "Why programmers work at night" (http://nightowlsbook.com http://nightowlsbook.com) and as part of it I'm tackling the problem of helping programmers (and their managers/clients) get the best out of their brain, which includes things like sleep deprivation, how nutrition impacts cognitive performance and feelings of fatigue etc.
- tannerc 13y ago
  This is interesting, especially for someone who has researched the concept before. Some immediate questions come to mind, like: at what point do you start tracking hours as sleep deprived versus not? What areas of cognitive performance are being evaluated exactly? How was the research collected and what was the sample size? Any time I see explicit numbers like this connected to neuroscience a bunch of little red flags start to fly up. But then again, I didn't sleep well last night.
sejje 13y ago
I'm a bit surprised that .08 BAC corresponds to 70% ability. That means that in many cases, a good-but-legally-drunk driver will be vastly out-performing a terrible-but-sober driver. I'm just glad my car will drive itself soon.
- 6d0debc071 13y ago
  Good driving doesn't have that much to do with your reaction time. 40% slower to respond, with a well planned drive, is a lot safer than 40% faster driving too close.
  - jessaustin 13y ago
    Sure, but one aspect of "terrible" driving would be: following too close, leaving oneself insufficient space to brake in response to leading vehicles. So, someone who is terrible in that respect could be more dangerous sober than a better driver is when drunk.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      Of course, the real reason the limit is there is because the greatest danger is the terrible driver, drunk. When you take 30% worse of "terrible", you get "really terrible".
      - dasil003 13y ago
        I couldn't help but think of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URupBZbfbJg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URupBZbfbJg
      - jessaustin 13y ago
        That's the reasoning, but to me it just proves that drunk driving shouldn't be a crime separate from poor driving. (I guess it would be OK as an aggravating factor for other traffic crimes.) Someone who drives acceptably while drunk drives acceptably, period.
ComputerGuru 13y ago
(This is mainly unrelated but simply fascinating) I came across an article on this same topic, regarding a man who after being shot in the head could no longer sleep..... and apparently lived (as a fully functioning human being??) for 40 more years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kern The problem is that I cannot find any scholarly articles that mention him (searched on Google Scholar, do not have access to other journals) and the wikipedia article has an extreme dearth of scientific details/sources on this individual; the citations listed are mainly mass media stories. As someone who has (mainly unsuccessfully) waged a battle against sleep almost my entire life, this story that I came across yesterday intrigued me greatly, and the lack of medical details frustrated me to no end.
- mjn 13y ago
  Interesting question, both in its own right, and in terms of what Wikipedia should do about it (something I've had an interest in [1] for a while). Looking at the university databases I have access to, I don't really find anything substantive beyond what you've found on Google Scholar. All the stories allege that he suffered a brain injury in 1915 that left him unable to sleep, but the stories themselves are never earlier than the 1930s, and are relatively short newspaper articles (at least, those surviving reports that are digitized and searchable). Is it a real case? A hoax? Something in between, misreporting a real case? Something well documented in an undigitized archive somewhere, waiting to be discovered? No idea. [1] http://www.kmjn.org/notes/wikipedia_notability_verifiability.html http://www.kmjn.org/notes/wikipedia_notability_verifiability...
- Swizec 13y ago
  For a definitive weapon against sleep you could look into modafinil. I haven't tried it because all the shady websites where you can buy it only ship to the US, but apparently it turns off your need for sleep completely with next to no effects of sleep deprivation. But I wouldn't use it to skip more than a night of sleep. Sounds like a bad idea because you do need to sleep. Sleep is good for you.
  - yor 13y ago
bdclimber14 13y ago
I'm curious of the different impact between normal sleep deprivation and primary insomnia. It's common that insomniacs don't feel sleepy during the day as compared to a normal sleeper that simply didn't get enough.
tghw 13y ago
Out of curiosity, I went looking for medical error rates from before the max shift lengths were decreased a few years ago and, compared to now. The study I found on it concluded that error rates did not meaningfully change, even though the residents were theoretically better rested. Upon further examination, they found that error rates due to fatigue had decreased, but that error rates related to patient handoffs had increased by a similar amount. The long shifts, while being a source of fatigue, did provide for good continuity of care, as the same doctor handled the case for longer. Once the study team started addressing some of the problems in handoffs, such as going through the patients alphabetically instead of by severity, they began to see the error rates decrease.
contextual 13y ago
There's been a lot of scientific research and animal experimentation on sleep the past several decades. Michel Jouvet[1] forced cats to stay awake until they drowned. Most cats survived for 35 days.[2] Tony Schwartz in his book "The Way We're Working Isn't Working" also mentioned a study on laboratory mice. They were deprived of ever sleeping until they died. From this Tony Schwatz advises we have a daily nap. I'm sure there are countless other hellish and inhumane experiments animals are going through to better our understanding of sleep. But it seems like we still don't know much. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Jouvet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Jouvet [2] http://psychology4a.com/sleep8.htm http://psychology4a.com/sleep8.htm
educating 13y ago
Someone with sleep apnea here. I think it is great when the problem of lack of sleep gets more attention. Though my snoring and pain at night has caused my sleep apnea, the lack of sleep is what has caused all of my health and mental problems. I've tried CPAP, dental appliance, and every other type of device you can think of. Ended up with a dental appliance but I still get very little REM and not enough sleep in-general. I haven't woken well-rested in maybe 25 years. It is horrible. Depression, weight problems, CRS (can't remember shit), people think I'm an idiot, often irritated, hopeless, tired all the time. Basically, it really, really sucks.
zerooneinfinity 13y ago
You know I use to see these articles and think, 'that's not me, I can function just fine with 5-6 hrs and a nap, and it was true, I could function just fine. What I didn't realize is the long term effects it would have on me, my memory became really bad, I was irritable to the point where I thought that's just who I was and worst of all I started having a really hard time grasping new concepts. I've been getting 7-10 hrs of sleep a night for about two months now and I already noticed a drastic difference in my brains performance. PSA: Those extra couple of hours of staying awake aren't worth it guys!
dpmehta02 13y ago
Here's some more short and sweet sleep info, straight from the man who founded the world's first sleep research laboratory: http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/sleepless.html http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/sleepless.html
codezero 13y ago
The device apparently uses actigraphy, which is super common. It is just measuring movement when sleeping, same as WakeMate (RIP) and Jawbone UP. Besides that I don't see what they are doing that is special except targeting specific sectors that optimize for job safety.
cmccabe 13y ago
That's always been my philosophy too.
davidw 13y ago
As a very jet lagged individual, I have to concur.
chrisvineup 13y ago
You ARE PRESUMHNING I'M NOT TDRUNK!
- chrisvineup 13y ago
  AGAIN!! Always JUGINDG ME!
junto 13y ago
Try having kids. I've been sleep deprived for several years and my health has noticeably suffered. I've also noticed that when I'm tired I tend to get stressed much faster.

110 points by bparsons 13y ago

Good: * The idea is pretty interesting; I feel like I'm drunk, but I'm undersleeping the last few months. * The major reason I don't get enough sleep is that I need to binge from time to time to get things done or enjoy life. I think I'll do better if I could track my sleeping needs before I get to feel like I do now Bad: * TA looks like an advertisement * The website uses words like "your workforce". I hope employers stay away from their employees sleep. What's next? Stool samples. Management in many places already likes to treat employees like lab rats or machines to be repaired.

plorkyeran 13y ago
> I hope employers stay away from their employees sleep. In theory it could turn out well, if it turned out that the numbers said it was better to pay people to take an hour nap in the middle of the work day. In practice I assume it'd turn out to be more of a mandatory unpaid nap, of course.
- aliciahatt 13y ago
  Thank you for your input. Upside of employees knowing how the staff sleep overall (nothing to a specific employee) could possibly lead to a better shift schedule and the ability to feel less fatigued in your free time
  - ketralnis 13y ago
    Or it could lead to employers demanding that employees give them all of their alert time rather than more normal hours. "Could possibly lead" isn't really a good reason to start giving up privacy
aliciahatt 13y ago
Great thing with your Real-time feedback on the Readiband you are able to tell yourself if how your feel matches up to your bodies fatigue level.
- dimitar 13y ago
  Exactly. That way I'll know if staying late is worth it. An hour of sleep doesn't "cost" the same at any time.
patbyrne 13y ago
I think you might be right except for airlines!!! I wouldn't want to be on a plane with a pilot that doesn't sleep well.
- JHof 13y ago
  I think pilots wearing Readibands would quickly reveal that a large number of airline pilots are working well into what would be considered a fatigued state.

Swizec 13y ago

Can't remember exact resource right now, but I've been researching sleep deprivation and related topics for a chapter in my book and apparently every hour of sleep deprivation reduces your cognitive performance by roughly 25%. I found that rather fascinating.

bparsons 13y ago
Swizec, if you are interested in additional resources for your book, I would be happy to connect you with some folks at Fatigue Science (they have a ton of data on how sleep deprivation contributes to reduced cognition and reaction time), or even hook you up with a two week trial of the Readiband for free.
- Swizec 13y ago
  Oh man that would be incredibly awesome if you could! My email is swizec@swizec.com, I'm open for talking to anyone who knows this stuff better than I do.
DoctorHouse 13y ago
care to elaborate on your book?
- Swizec 13y ago
  I'm writing a book called "Why programmers work at night" (http://nightowlsbook.com http://nightowlsbook.com) and as part of it I'm tackling the problem of helping programmers (and their managers/clients) get the best out of their brain, which includes things like sleep deprivation, how nutrition impacts cognitive performance and feelings of fatigue etc.
tannerc 13y ago
This is interesting, especially for someone who has researched the concept before. Some immediate questions come to mind, like: at what point do you start tracking hours as sleep deprived versus not? What areas of cognitive performance are being evaluated exactly? How was the research collected and what was the sample size? Any time I see explicit numbers like this connected to neuroscience a bunch of little red flags start to fly up. But then again, I didn't sleep well last night.

sejje 13y ago

I'm a bit surprised that .08 BAC corresponds to 70% ability. That means that in many cases, a good-but-legally-drunk driver will be vastly out-performing a terrible-but-sober driver. I'm just glad my car will drive itself soon.

6d0debc071 13y ago
Good driving doesn't have that much to do with your reaction time. 40% slower to respond, with a well planned drive, is a lot safer than 40% faster driving too close.
- jessaustin 13y ago
  Sure, but one aspect of "terrible" driving would be: following too close, leaving oneself insufficient space to brake in response to leading vehicles. So, someone who is terrible in that respect could be more dangerous sober than a better driver is when drunk.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    Of course, the real reason the limit is there is because the greatest danger is the terrible driver, drunk. When you take 30% worse of "terrible", you get "really terrible".
    - dasil003 13y ago
      I couldn't help but think of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URupBZbfbJg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URupBZbfbJg
    - jessaustin 13y ago
      That's the reasoning, but to me it just proves that drunk driving shouldn't be a crime separate from poor driving. (I guess it would be OK as an aggravating factor for other traffic crimes.) Someone who drives acceptably while drunk drives acceptably, period.

ComputerGuru 13y ago

(This is mainly unrelated but simply fascinating) I came across an article on this same topic, regarding a man who after being shot in the head could no longer sleep..... and apparently lived (as a fully functioning human being??) for 40 more years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kern The problem is that I cannot find any scholarly articles that mention him (searched on Google Scholar, do not have access to other journals) and the wikipedia article has an extreme dearth of scientific details/sources on this individual; the citations listed are mainly mass media stories. As someone who has (mainly unsuccessfully) waged a battle against sleep almost my entire life, this story that I came across yesterday intrigued me greatly, and the lack of medical details frustrated me to no end.

mjn 13y ago
Interesting question, both in its own right, and in terms of what Wikipedia should do about it (something I've had an interest in [1] for a while). Looking at the university databases I have access to, I don't really find anything substantive beyond what you've found on Google Scholar. All the stories allege that he suffered a brain injury in 1915 that left him unable to sleep, but the stories themselves are never earlier than the 1930s, and are relatively short newspaper articles (at least, those surviving reports that are digitized and searchable). Is it a real case? A hoax? Something in between, misreporting a real case? Something well documented in an undigitized archive somewhere, waiting to be discovered? No idea. [1] http://www.kmjn.org/notes/wikipedia_notability_verifiability.html http://www.kmjn.org/notes/wikipedia_notability_verifiability...
Swizec 13y ago
For a definitive weapon against sleep you could look into modafinil. I haven't tried it because all the shady websites where you can buy it only ship to the US, but apparently it turns off your need for sleep completely with next to no effects of sleep deprivation. But I wouldn't use it to skip more than a night of sleep. Sounds like a bad idea because you do need to sleep. Sleep is good for you.
- yor 13y ago

bdclimber14 13y ago

I'm curious of the different impact between normal sleep deprivation and primary insomnia. It's common that insomniacs don't feel sleepy during the day as compared to a normal sleeper that simply didn't get enough.

tghw 13y ago

Out of curiosity, I went looking for medical error rates from before the max shift lengths were decreased a few years ago and, compared to now. The study I found on it concluded that error rates did not meaningfully change, even though the residents were theoretically better rested. Upon further examination, they found that error rates due to fatigue had decreased, but that error rates related to patient handoffs had increased by a similar amount. The long shifts, while being a source of fatigue, did provide for good continuity of care, as the same doctor handled the case for longer. Once the study team started addressing some of the problems in handoffs, such as going through the patients alphabetically instead of by severity, they began to see the error rates decrease.

contextual 13y ago

There's been a lot of scientific research and animal experimentation on sleep the past several decades. Michel Jouvet[1] forced cats to stay awake until they drowned. Most cats survived for 35 days.[2] Tony Schwartz in his book "The Way We're Working Isn't Working" also mentioned a study on laboratory mice. They were deprived of ever sleeping until they died. From this Tony Schwatz advises we have a daily nap. I'm sure there are countless other hellish and inhumane experiments animals are going through to better our understanding of sleep. But it seems like we still don't know much. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Jouvet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Jouvet [2] http://psychology4a.com/sleep8.htm http://psychology4a.com/sleep8.htm

educating 13y ago

Someone with sleep apnea here. I think it is great when the problem of lack of sleep gets more attention. Though my snoring and pain at night has caused my sleep apnea, the lack of sleep is what has caused all of my health and mental problems. I've tried CPAP, dental appliance, and every other type of device you can think of. Ended up with a dental appliance but I still get very little REM and not enough sleep in-general. I haven't woken well-rested in maybe 25 years. It is horrible. Depression, weight problems, CRS (can't remember shit), people think I'm an idiot, often irritated, hopeless, tired all the time. Basically, it really, really sucks.

zerooneinfinity 13y ago

You know I use to see these articles and think, 'that's not me, I can function just fine with 5-6 hrs and a nap, and it was true, I could function just fine. What I didn't realize is the long term effects it would have on me, my memory became really bad, I was irritable to the point where I thought that's just who I was and worst of all I started having a really hard time grasping new concepts. I've been getting 7-10 hrs of sleep a night for about two months now and I already noticed a drastic difference in my brains performance. PSA: Those extra couple of hours of staying awake aren't worth it guys!

dpmehta02 13y ago

Here's some more short and sweet sleep info, straight from the man who founded the world's first sleep research laboratory: http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/sleepless.html http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/sleepless.html

codezero 13y ago

The device apparently uses actigraphy, which is super common. It is just measuring movement when sleeping, same as WakeMate (RIP) and Jawbone UP. Besides that I don't see what they are doing that is special except targeting specific sectors that optimize for job safety.

cmccabe 13y ago

That's always been my philosophy too.

davidw 13y ago

As a very jet lagged individual, I have to concur.

chrisvineup 13y ago

You ARE PRESUMHNING I'M NOT TDRUNK!

chrisvineup 13y ago
AGAIN!! Always JUGINDG ME!

junto 13y ago

Try having kids. I've been sleep deprived for several years and my health has noticeably suffered. I've also noticed that when I'm tired I tend to get stressed much faster.