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I honestly don't understand how you can live in India and expect shit like this not to happen. People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation of rid

by phaus 13y ago

I honestly don't understand how you can live in India and expect shit like this not to happen. People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation of riding a public bus without getting raped to death, how cold you possibly expect the authorities to care about counterfeit books? India is a beautiful place, with lots of brilliant, talented people, but until their local and federal governments start observing and enforcing the rule of law, it's going to remain one of the shittiest countries to live in.

saganus 13y ago
Speaking as someone who lives in a... well, "under-developed" country to be pollitically correct, I can say that even when you expect shit like this to happen and are even prepared for it, there's certainly no way to make it better if no one complains or says anything. At least the author seems to be making an effort to rise above this "shit that happens". How? by studying and working hard to be able to get a shot at, either leaving the country, achieving a better quality of life (i.e. more money, whenever money does make things better, which is certainly not all things) and/or by complaining and raising flags about this and hoping that enough fuss will make some poeple move their asses and change things.
pcx66 13y ago
> People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation of riding a public bus without getting raped to death That was very, very offensive. Are you an Indian? or at the least been to India? My mother has been using public transport for 25 years (now traveling upto 150Kms for her job). She never had a problem. Show some data and or shut up your arrogant mouth.
- harlanlewis 13y ago
  I think he's referring to a recent spate of rapes in India that received a lot of exposure in the US press. TIME just posted an article about high-profile gang rape in India a couple days ago: http://world.time.com/2013/09/02/india-fury-over-gang-rapes-sign-of-changing-nation/ http://world.time.com/2013/09/02/india-fury-over-gang-rapes-...
  - pcx66 13y ago
    Yes, I got that. Here's my take on it, which might contradict most of the stories out there. I don't think the many number of such recent cases is a new occurrence. It's just that the media is using 'Rape cases' as their 'News topic for the year', making sure they make a big deal out of such cases, which is a good thing. But media concentrating so much on this topic is because people are finally ready to talk about such stuff. I've heard of dozens of rumors of rape that were allegedly subdued over the last few years. I think the Delhi rape incident was the tipping point. I don't think rape cases have increased, I think the reporting and public outcry have gone up. India is finally dealing with the most shameful parts of a society whose discussion was until now anti-cultural, any discussion related to sex is anti-cultural. In our movies the most just thing for a rape victim was to get them married to the rapist, that was considered giving the victim a life, go figure that out. Despite all that, I and several other people go by our day mostly care free. There is a sense of security in our social lives. Shit still happens, where doesn't it not happen. But this shit is not new, it is not unique to us. Making such lame shallow comment about a culture is insensitive.
    - phaus 13y ago
      It isn't a shallow comment. Receiving Justice in India is largely a function of gender and caste. I mention it not because I look down on India, but because I see so much potential in that country that may never be fulfilled if it doesn't fix its government, and its social attitudes towards women and poor people. I don't think that there is a dramatic increase in rapes in India, its just that information flows more freely now. I agree that its getting attention because people in India are finally ready to talk about such issues. When I talk about India being a shitty country, I'm talking about the government, and the people who allow the caste system to persist. Many average Indians are outraged by the way that rape victims are treated, yet the government just wants everyone to act like its OK to punish the victims. For what its worth, I bitch about the United States just as much if not more than any other country, because we have been fucking up a lot lately too.
      - yarou 13y ago
- pcx66 13y ago
  > People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation of riding a public bus without getting raped to death Why so many negative votes? What was wrong about me being offended by such an insensitive statement. The statement was factually incorrect. Is it not arrogant to comment on a country like that without data?
  - phaus 13y ago
    Because it's like me getting personally offended when people call the United States out for it's illegal surveillance programs. I'm not offended, because I didn't have anything to do with it. As a citizen, all I can do is vote in every election and raise awareness. Presumably, you didn't rape anybody, and you probably don't have any major political/government connections that would allow you to make things better in your country. You are just a bystander in a place that has some significant problems. So am I, but that doesn't mean I get personally offended when people talk about it.
anuragramdasan 13y ago
I understand your sentiments here and do not wish to argue much with it. I share similar concerns too. There have been many(and I mean MANY) accounts of rape in India in the recent year, but that still doesn't mean every time you stand next to an Indian, your chances of getting raped skyrockets. Having said that, we are working on trying to fix things. I use the word 'we' in the sense that I work with few NGOs who have made women's safety their primary concern and are achieving success in it too. CodeForIndia being one such organization that I am a part of at the moment and also am an active developer in a project about womens safety. Of course, there is a huge chance we will all fail miserably in our attempts, but it would still be better than spreading pessimism all over and not acting at all. Also while dealing with such wrongful activities, I don't think prioritizing is a good idea. I am not comparing this with rape. I am talking about all corrupt or negligent activites. A lot of people are trying here. Not as many as we'd like to, but still. I just do not like that a country of over a billion is discredited due to the acts of a few. Neither am I saying that the acts of those few should be ignored, of course not. I would rather appreciate some action being taken over unproductive negative criticism.
- phaus 13y ago
  I know that the majority of Indians aren't rapists, it's just the institutional acceptance of the rapes that do occur that make it seem so much worse. There are people, such as yourself, who are trying to help, but at this point, it seems as if you are in a David vs Goliath situation, only without a sling. It doesn't seem to be the general population that is the problem, its the government, and governments are notoriously difficult to change.
  - anuragramdasan 13y ago
    I understand that it is a David and Goliath situation when we talk about governments corruption and ordinary people like us. Once in a while some country pops out an Assange or a Snowden, but that is not something one can sit back and wait to happen. And there aren't many things an ordinary person can do too. It is tough, but sitting back and complaining is also no solution. On the other hand, rape cases have nothing to do with government. This is people inflicting pain on people. And its not just rape but any sort of attack on safety and we can be optimist about cleaning up this mess. Also it has to be understood that one person or a group can not just decide to fix it and the next day rapes stop happening. It will take a while to make it happen. In the mean time, more rapes might happen and we can't do much about it. It doesn't mean no one cares about those getting raped. Its just that not much can be done when most of the population prefers to be armchair critics.
jacalata 13y ago
Where did you get the impression that the book was counterfeit?
- phaus 13y ago
  Counterfeit is probably the wrong word to describe it, but he didn't get what he paid for. He got an obsolete version of the book that had been reformatted and manipulated to the point where to him it seemed to be unusable.
blauwbilgorgel 13y ago
>I honestly don't understand how you can live in India and expect shit like this not to happen. People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation of riding a public bus without getting raped to death, how cold you possibly expect the authorities to care about counterfeit books? I'm quite disgusted to see this poor comment. I don't understand how it is adding to the topic at hand. You went from a re-printed book with an error to rape and politics in the country of the author. The article had nothing to do with either. Even if India has the highest rape statistics in the world, that doesn't add any relevance to the point you are making, which basically boils down to: You don't have a reasonable expectation of riding a public bus without getting raped to death, therefor you should expect "shit" like outdated re-prints. What? Rape statistics are not even clear enough to make the point that India has more cases of rape than the USA (due to differences in reporting rates and definitions of rape). Some experts estimate rape statistics to be about equal [1]. Homicide statistics are a lot clearer in both reporting and definition and there the USA "beats" India. [2] >India is a beautiful place, with lots of brilliant, talented people, but until their local and federal governments start observing and enforcing the rule of law, it's going to remain one of the shittiest countries to live in. Is that your final conclusion? That India is a shitty country to live in? To an article about an Indian re-print of Donald Knuth's book with an error in it? If you had used this argument template for an American author, to drag American politics and crime rates into an unrelated topic, you'd be ridiculed and derided. [1] http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/01/02/are-women-safer-in-india-or-the-u-s/ http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/01/02/are-women-safe... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...
- phaus 13y ago
  My point was that in India, the authorities don't preserve justice even when serious crimes have been committed, so its doubtful that they would care about things as insignificant as false-advertising. If a society's legal system is demonstrably corrupt, the rest of the society is bound to follow. You could argue that the same thing applies to the United States, and I would agree. Right now, however, I feel that the stage the U.S. justice system is in is that of the functional alcoholic. Its still working for the most part, but it could completely fall apart at any time. >Is that your final conclusion? Yes. It is a shitty place to live, unless you come from a privileged family. It obviously doesn't have to be, and it might not always be but as of today, it is. If you took a hundred random people and asked them which country they would rather live in(Out of the two), probably at least 75 (And this is generous) would say the United States, even though we are in the middle of a downward spiral. If you asked them which country they would rather live in as a lower-middle class citizen, only an imbecile (or perhaps someone with family in India) would choose to live in India. The United States botches rape trials on a regular basis, but still, in spite of our own corrupt system, it's significantly better than what's going on in India. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that you are correct, and that the per-capita rape statistics are similar. However, in the United States, you have a much better chance of bringing the perpetrator to justice.
grecy 13y ago
> I honestly don't understand how you can live in India and expect shit like this not to happen. People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation of riding a public bus without getting raped to death I honestly don't know how you can live in America and expect nasty shit not to happen. The murder rate in America is 4.8 times higher than the country I live in. [1] (see how offensive/stupid that sounds) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... Interestingly, when I consider how dangerous America is compared to my home country (4.8x), that's the same as you looking at Mexico, Sudan, Panama or Brazil. The American media thinks Mexico is a murderous hell-hole, which, statistically speaking, is what we should (and often do) think of America. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398257/Chris-Lane-murder-Teens-shot-dead-Australian-student-street-named-pictured.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398257/Chris-Lane-m...
- phaus 13y ago
  You stating that America has an astronomical murder rate doesn't sound stupid or offensive at all, it's true. I'm ashamed that we haven't been able to solve that problem, but I'm not going to take offense when someone points it out to me, to deny reality is delusional. >I honestly don't know how you can live in America and expect nasty shit not to happen. The murder rate in America is 4.8 times higher than the country I live in. The reason that I have an expectation that it doesn't happen, is because all levels of my government openly oppose the act of murder. Things that are true shouldn't offend us. America has lots of faults, and I talk about them quite often. There's a distinct possibility that anyone with access to a computer in India is largely immune to a significant portion of the government's corruption and the caste system. Also since you like statistics, try taking a look at pretty much any corruption index survey to see where India lies.

by phaus 13y ago

saganus 13y ago

Speaking as someone who lives in a... well, "under-developed" country to be pollitically correct, I can say that even when you expect shit like this to happen and are even prepared for it, there's certainly no way to make it better if no one complains or says anything. At least the author seems to be making an effort to rise above this "shit that happens". How? by studying and working hard to be able to get a shot at, either leaving the country, achieving a better quality of life (i.e. more money, whenever money does make things better, which is certainly not all things) and/or by complaining and raising flags about this and hoping that enough fuss will make some poeple move their asses and change things.

pcx66 13y ago

> People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation of riding a public bus without getting raped to death That was very, very offensive. Are you an Indian? or at the least been to India? My mother has been using public transport for 25 years (now traveling upto 150Kms for her job). She never had a problem. Show some data and or shut up your arrogant mouth.

harlanlewis 13y ago
I think he's referring to a recent spate of rapes in India that received a lot of exposure in the US press. TIME just posted an article about high-profile gang rape in India a couple days ago: http://world.time.com/2013/09/02/india-fury-over-gang-rapes-sign-of-changing-nation/ http://world.time.com/2013/09/02/india-fury-over-gang-rapes-...
- pcx66 13y ago
  Yes, I got that. Here's my take on it, which might contradict most of the stories out there. I don't think the many number of such recent cases is a new occurrence. It's just that the media is using 'Rape cases' as their 'News topic for the year', making sure they make a big deal out of such cases, which is a good thing. But media concentrating so much on this topic is because people are finally ready to talk about such stuff. I've heard of dozens of rumors of rape that were allegedly subdued over the last few years. I think the Delhi rape incident was the tipping point. I don't think rape cases have increased, I think the reporting and public outcry have gone up. India is finally dealing with the most shameful parts of a society whose discussion was until now anti-cultural, any discussion related to sex is anti-cultural. In our movies the most just thing for a rape victim was to get them married to the rapist, that was considered giving the victim a life, go figure that out. Despite all that, I and several other people go by our day mostly care free. There is a sense of security in our social lives. Shit still happens, where doesn't it not happen. But this shit is not new, it is not unique to us. Making such lame shallow comment about a culture is insensitive.
  - phaus 13y ago
    It isn't a shallow comment. Receiving Justice in India is largely a function of gender and caste. I mention it not because I look down on India, but because I see so much potential in that country that may never be fulfilled if it doesn't fix its government, and its social attitudes towards women and poor people. I don't think that there is a dramatic increase in rapes in India, its just that information flows more freely now. I agree that its getting attention because people in India are finally ready to talk about such issues. When I talk about India being a shitty country, I'm talking about the government, and the people who allow the caste system to persist. Many average Indians are outraged by the way that rape victims are treated, yet the government just wants everyone to act like its OK to punish the victims. For what its worth, I bitch about the United States just as much if not more than any other country, because we have been fucking up a lot lately too.
    - yarou 13y ago
pcx66 13y ago
> People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation of riding a public bus without getting raped to death Why so many negative votes? What was wrong about me being offended by such an insensitive statement. The statement was factually incorrect. Is it not arrogant to comment on a country like that without data?
- phaus 13y ago
  Because it's like me getting personally offended when people call the United States out for it's illegal surveillance programs. I'm not offended, because I didn't have anything to do with it. As a citizen, all I can do is vote in every election and raise awareness. Presumably, you didn't rape anybody, and you probably don't have any major political/government connections that would allow you to make things better in your country. You are just a bystander in a place that has some significant problems. So am I, but that doesn't mean I get personally offended when people talk about it.

anuragramdasan 13y ago

I understand your sentiments here and do not wish to argue much with it. I share similar concerns too. There have been many(and I mean MANY) accounts of rape in India in the recent year, but that still doesn't mean every time you stand next to an Indian, your chances of getting raped skyrockets. Having said that, we are working on trying to fix things. I use the word 'we' in the sense that I work with few NGOs who have made women's safety their primary concern and are achieving success in it too. CodeForIndia being one such organization that I am a part of at the moment and also am an active developer in a project about womens safety. Of course, there is a huge chance we will all fail miserably in our attempts, but it would still be better than spreading pessimism all over and not acting at all. Also while dealing with such wrongful activities, I don't think prioritizing is a good idea. I am not comparing this with rape. I am talking about all corrupt or negligent activites. A lot of people are trying here. Not as many as we'd like to, but still. I just do not like that a country of over a billion is discredited due to the acts of a few. Neither am I saying that the acts of those few should be ignored, of course not. I would rather appreciate some action being taken over unproductive negative criticism.

phaus 13y ago
I know that the majority of Indians aren't rapists, it's just the institutional acceptance of the rapes that do occur that make it seem so much worse. There are people, such as yourself, who are trying to help, but at this point, it seems as if you are in a David vs Goliath situation, only without a sling. It doesn't seem to be the general population that is the problem, its the government, and governments are notoriously difficult to change.
- anuragramdasan 13y ago
  I understand that it is a David and Goliath situation when we talk about governments corruption and ordinary people like us. Once in a while some country pops out an Assange or a Snowden, but that is not something one can sit back and wait to happen. And there aren't many things an ordinary person can do too. It is tough, but sitting back and complaining is also no solution. On the other hand, rape cases have nothing to do with government. This is people inflicting pain on people. And its not just rape but any sort of attack on safety and we can be optimist about cleaning up this mess. Also it has to be understood that one person or a group can not just decide to fix it and the next day rapes stop happening. It will take a while to make it happen. In the mean time, more rapes might happen and we can't do much about it. It doesn't mean no one cares about those getting raped. Its just that not much can be done when most of the population prefers to be armchair critics.

jacalata 13y ago

Where did you get the impression that the book was counterfeit?

phaus 13y ago
Counterfeit is probably the wrong word to describe it, but he didn't get what he paid for. He got an obsolete version of the book that had been reformatted and manipulated to the point where to him it seemed to be unusable.

blauwbilgorgel 13y ago

>I honestly don't understand how you can live in India and expect shit like this not to happen. People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation of riding a public bus without getting raped to death, how cold you possibly expect the authorities to care about counterfeit books? I'm quite disgusted to see this poor comment. I don't understand how it is adding to the topic at hand. You went from a re-printed book with an error to rape and politics in the country of the author. The article had nothing to do with either. Even if India has the highest rape statistics in the world, that doesn't add any relevance to the point you are making, which basically boils down to: You don't have a reasonable expectation of riding a public bus without getting raped to death, therefor you should expect "shit" like outdated re-prints. What? Rape statistics are not even clear enough to make the point that India has more cases of rape than the USA (due to differences in reporting rates and definitions of rape). Some experts estimate rape statistics to be about equal [1]. Homicide statistics are a lot clearer in both reporting and definition and there the USA "beats" India. [2] >India is a beautiful place, with lots of brilliant, talented people, but until their local and federal governments start observing and enforcing the rule of law, it's going to remain one of the shittiest countries to live in. Is that your final conclusion? That India is a shitty country to live in? To an article about an Indian re-print of Donald Knuth's book with an error in it? If you had used this argument template for an American author, to drag American politics and crime rates into an unrelated topic, you'd be ridiculed and derided. [1] http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/01/02/are-women-safer-in-india-or-the-u-s/ http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/01/02/are-women-safe... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

phaus 13y ago
My point was that in India, the authorities don't preserve justice even when serious crimes have been committed, so its doubtful that they would care about things as insignificant as false-advertising. If a society's legal system is demonstrably corrupt, the rest of the society is bound to follow. You could argue that the same thing applies to the United States, and I would agree. Right now, however, I feel that the stage the U.S. justice system is in is that of the functional alcoholic. Its still working for the most part, but it could completely fall apart at any time. >Is that your final conclusion? Yes. It is a shitty place to live, unless you come from a privileged family. It obviously doesn't have to be, and it might not always be but as of today, it is. If you took a hundred random people and asked them which country they would rather live in(Out of the two), probably at least 75 (And this is generous) would say the United States, even though we are in the middle of a downward spiral. If you asked them which country they would rather live in as a lower-middle class citizen, only an imbecile (or perhaps someone with family in India) would choose to live in India. The United States botches rape trials on a regular basis, but still, in spite of our own corrupt system, it's significantly better than what's going on in India. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that you are correct, and that the per-capita rape statistics are similar. However, in the United States, you have a much better chance of bringing the perpetrator to justice.

grecy 13y ago

> I honestly don't understand how you can live in India and expect shit like this not to happen. People in India don't even have the reasonable expectation of riding a public bus without getting raped to death I honestly don't know how you can live in America and expect nasty shit not to happen. The murder rate in America is 4.8 times higher than the country I live in. [1] (see how offensive/stupid that sounds) [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... Interestingly, when I consider how dangerous America is compared to my home country (4.8x), that's the same as you looking at Mexico, Sudan, Panama or Brazil. The American media thinks Mexico is a murderous hell-hole, which, statistically speaking, is what we should (and often do) think of America. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398257/Chris-Lane-murder-Teens-shot-dead-Australian-student-street-named-pictured.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398257/Chris-Lane-m...

phaus 13y ago
You stating that America has an astronomical murder rate doesn't sound stupid or offensive at all, it's true. I'm ashamed that we haven't been able to solve that problem, but I'm not going to take offense when someone points it out to me, to deny reality is delusional. >I honestly don't know how you can live in America and expect nasty shit not to happen. The murder rate in America is 4.8 times higher than the country I live in. The reason that I have an expectation that it doesn't happen, is because all levels of my government openly oppose the act of murder. Things that are true shouldn't offend us. America has lots of faults, and I talk about them quite often. There's a distinct possibility that anyone with access to a computer in India is largely immune to a significant portion of the government's corruption and the caste system. Also since you like statistics, try taking a look at pretty much any corruption index survey to see where India lies.