5 ms·

If the goal is to teach kids to shut up, sit down and get in line, then it works as expected.

• coldtea 13y ago
  Things which a lot of kids are in dire need to be taught of, anyway...
  • argonaut 13y ago
    Yes, but in the process of pacifying the bottom percentile, you risk pacifying kids in the upper percentile.
• sliverstorm 13y ago
  You can't say that living in civilized society doesn't require that ability at times.
  • eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    I'd call that a critique of civilized society.
    • unimpressive 13y ago
      Fielding a viable military, as one example, does require some amount of discipline in your troops. Fielding a 21st century military will require even more of it, if the model predicted by the Rand company I read about in a book on Special Operations is anything to go by. (Small teams that group together to complete objectives and then disband to avoid becoming a target.)
      • eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        Except that society doesn't need every single citizen in the military. Even we Israelis only need most people in the army for a few years rather than going to total war.
        • anigbrowl 13y ago
          It's true in lots of work situations besides the military. Also, taking turns to let other people speak and doing things in an orderly fashion is the basis of legislative and court proceedings, as well as more basic things like not driving your car on the sidewalk or ignoring red traffic lights. My personal opinion is that humans in groups tend to engage in lowest-common-denominator behavior by default, and hierarchical structures are useful for preventing crowds from degenerating into mobs.
          • eli_gottlieb 13y ago
            I don't see any actual links between being able to run a competent government, being able to drive properly, and being inculcated to have "sit down and shut up" as your chief response to most of life.
            • anigbrowl 13y ago
              You can't say that living in civilized society doesn't require [the ability to sit down and shut up] at times. ...is a far cry from 'as your chief response to most of life.'
      • Zigurd 13y ago
        Many nations cannot "field a viable military." We'd be $2Trillion richer if we lacked the ability to go on military adventures on the far side of the planet. Orienting education around such a goal seems misguided.
        • ars 13y ago
          > We'd be $2Trillion richer No we wouldn't. Where do you think that money goes? Salary to Americans. The money moves in a circle. We would be somewhat richer (broken window fallacy in play), but it would be a small fraction of the nominal number. And the fraction is even smaller if you realize that in some cases you are taking people who are doing nothing, and giving them a job (so the broken window fallacy doesn't apply to them).
          • Zigurd 13y ago
            Let me put it in concrete terms: 1. The wars were 100% borrowed money. Every dollar spent was borrowed. 2. The wars produced nothing. Zero value. Not even any cool technology we overpaid for. A complete waste. The wars literally increased the debt and associated economic drag on us and our children and their children by $2T in debt. We would, therefore, be literally $2T richer. Not all of it was paid to Americans, but of the amount that was, every penny will be taxed out of us and paid back with interest. Pure drag and deadweight.
    • sliverstorm 13y ago
      Please expand on how it could ever work any other way, given that people are different and have different beliefs & opinions.
      • eli_gottlieb 13y ago
        If people are so different and have such different beliefs, why do you recommend forcing them all into a regimented uniformity? Montessori Schools, Mondragon cooperatives, and such are good first experiments, and we should be learning from them how to better construct institutions in which people actually enact their own beliefs and opinions by actually making decisions and taking responsibility for their own daily lives, in accordance with intrinsically motivated self-discipline (which, notably, requires less reward-and-punishment enforcement infrastructure!). If you object to the very principle of equality between people, fine, but at least object out loud. Don't come telling us that "sit down and shut up" is a means to any ends other than regimentation itself.
        • sliverstorm 13y ago
          If people are so different and have such different beliefs, why do you recommend forcing them all into a regimented uniformity? Because people are different and hold different beliefs. I know some of my beliefs are upsetting to certain people, so I hold my tongue in regard to those beliefs around those people, because I care about those people. Also, I didn't say "let's force people into regimented uniformity". I said, (perhaps not directly enough) being able to silence yourself is useful. Some people simply do not know how or when to stop talking. It's always painful to watch as they dig themselves deeper.
          • eli_gottlieb 13y ago
            Ah, I hadn't realized you literally meant the ability to shut up as opposed to the general lifestyle of regimented obedience normally signaled by the words "sit down and shut up".
  • bcoates 13y ago
    Don't confuse compliance and learned helplessness with discipline and the ability to defer gratification. The school system in America is teaching the former and neglecting the latter, and doing more of it better is only going to get us more of the weaknesses and less of the strengths.
    • floobynewb 13y ago
      Bang on.
• enraged_camel 13y ago
  That used to be the goal during the industrial age, when you needed factory workers who needed to come in and leave at exact times and follow orders to the letter. Since then we have advanced to a knowledge/information economy where things like critical thinking and taking initiative are necessary for success, and school has failed to keep up in terms of encouraging these habits in kids.