6 ms·

Sleep 'boosts brain cell numbers'

100 points by akandiah 13y ago

yardie 13y ago
Good article. I hope some of these 'brogrammers' read it and realize that programming 20 hours a day is not only shortening your lifespan. It is, literally, making you more stupid.
- adamnemecek 13y ago
  That's what Red Bull is for, brah. /s
- arethuza 13y ago
  I wonder if anyone has ever done a statistical analysis of a large project to see when changes that generated bugs were actually performed. I've long suspected that when you see particularly silly bugs committed by people who really do know better there is usually some explanation that can often be that they are tired/stressed/distracted. [NB I know myself that I can do particularly silly things when tired so I will sometimes let myself spend a long time investigating a problem but I won't fix it until the next day.]
  - hnbanned 13y ago
    http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-40-hours-a-week-is-useless.html http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-40... The studies showed that there's a short term gain followed by a fall in productivity.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    I've had projects where we had to send people home because they became a such a noticeable burden. Personally I wanted to force people out of the office much earlier on one of them because pretty much nothing got done when people were staying late, but it left everyone more tired in the morning, but the CEO was of the "more hours == more work done" mentality and wouldn't listen.
  - colanderman 13y ago
    Replying to let hnbanned (see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6319611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6319611) know he's been hellbanned again for no reason. Here's his comment: http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-40-hours-a-week-is-useless.html http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-40... The studies showed that there's a short term gain followed by a fall in productivity.
- jwdunne 13y ago
  This is interesting actually. I remember a time I stayed up all night trying to get a script for a game working (hobby project). I was hacking away all night until early morning and I just couldn't fix the issues. After a good sleep, I'd fixed the issue and got it working as it should within an hour. The lesson for me was that I shouldn't put my health on the line for these types of things; it doesn't help in actually making progress and it could set my performance back weeks. Another big lesson, which is more general and took a few more mistakes, was the value of stepping away from a problem after intense conscious focus on it. This may or may not mean sleep on it but just means taking your mind off it and let the back of your head tick away on it. I think this might actually be the source of "eureka" moments too, which means flashes of ingenuity are not exactly what they seem!
  - RyanMcGreal 13y ago
    I find a brisk walk, jog or bike ride in the middle of the day consistently boosts my productivity.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- mistercow 13y ago
  Unless, of course, you're doing polyphasic sleep, in which case eh, maybe?
  - pstuart 13y ago
    Every post I've seen about polyphasic sleep shows that it is not sustainable.
    - mistercow 13y ago
      I've read multiple accounts of people who have done it for several months[1][2][3][4]. I have seen only one account of someone quitting after the initial adaptation for any reason other than convenience. I have also read some accounts[5] of people who quit polyphasic, but go back to it in various forms when they have time constraints (and apparently adapting back is not very difficult once you've done it once; my guess is that the ability to nap efficiently is not lost, and is the main stumbling block to getting started). So if by "not sustainable", you mean "very hard to fit into a monophasic sleeping world", then yes, that's true. If you mean "after a week or two, you'll feel exhausted", then yes, that's also true. It takes longer than that to adapt. If you mean "it's not enough sleep even after you adapt", then where are the posts you're talking about? [1] http://ohgodthechicken.com/sleep-discipline-experiment/ http://ohgodthechicken.com/sleep-discipline-experiment/ [2] http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2007/03/polyphasic-sleep-one-year-later/ http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2007/03/polyphasic-sleep-on... [3] http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1095 http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1095 [4] http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1060 http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1060 [5] http://www.xeeban.com/xeeban/archives/000003.html http://www.xeeban.com/xeeban/archives/000003.html
      - enraged_camel 13y ago
        >>I've read multiple accounts of people who have done it for several months[1][2][3][4]. Your "citations" are impressive, but at the end of the day they are just anecdotal evidence. We also have many accounts of people who claim homeopathy works. Should we believe them?
kvee 13y ago
So will it ever be possible to artificially produce these cells that go on to make myelin and reduce or eliminate the need for sleep?
- mistercow 13y ago
  Maybe, but I doubt that will be sufficient. Evolution being the opportunistic bastard that it is, it seems likely that lots of little processes have hitched a ride on sleep. There may not be any single factor to take care of which eliminates the need for sleep entirely.
- samatman 13y ago
  I sure hope so. That's the key tech needed to treat multiple sclerosis, and I have several friends who are sufferers. I doubt it would be sufficient in itself to reduce sleep needs, however. Our bodies are practically speaking modal organisms, and there's a lot we only do when sleeping.
- 11001 13y ago
  Why tricking the nature is so often the first reaction of people around here? Sleep helps replinsh brain cells - let's make a pill that does just that so we don't need to sleep as much! Vegitables are good for you - let's have a pill that has all their nutrients so we don't need to eat them! Exercise betters the mood - let's isolate those chemicals so we don't need to exercise! Being barefoot is good for you - let's all buy "barefoot shoes"! I really don't get it. Why are people so averse to natural ways and ofetn simple moderation. I did not grow up in North America, so maybe it's just a cultural difference.
carnivaloffun 13y ago
This is perhaps the scariest part: The genes involved in cell death and stress responses were turned on when the mice were forced to stay awake.
polskibus 13y ago
This is an important finding, not because it confirms something that seems obvious for many people (ie. prolonged sleep deprivation = worse performance), but because it can help change the dominant management style in companies. Overworking is a very old problem, but hopefully similar findings will boost the strength of counter arguments.
- rbanffy 13y ago
  I fear overworked managers will not be able to understand the issue.
  - kamjam 13y ago
    Maybe after a good nights sleep...
- Fishkins 13y ago
  Although I agree management styles should change based on studies like this, I'm not optimistic they will (at least not very quickly). Evidence against the efficacy of long work weeks has been around for quite a while[0], but that doesn't seem to stop most managers from expecting employees to work more hours. 0: http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/ http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_...
Sagat 13y ago
I learned early in life that it's better to work intensely and rest a lot than do more work of a lower quality. If you are sleep deprived you might miss insights and opportunities. Time is the most valuable resource in the universe: by staying awake longer you are not gaining time but shortening your available time pool in the long run.
w1ntermute 13y ago
I think everyone owes it to themselves to set aside a few weeks in which they go to sleep early enough that they wake up naturally every day. The feeling is amazing and it does wonders for your productivity.
- Tarential 13y ago
  It is so good for productivity that I've completely stopped using "staying up late" as a method to get things done. If I have a lot of work to do that's a good sign to get to bed early and start in the morning when I'm fresh. Problems that I spend hours on the night before seem to solve themselves magically in minutes. After a while I got the hint: Just go to bed and sleep. You save time and feel better.
cyeah 13y ago
I have little time. I sometimes overwork one hour or more and I also have a long commute (between 1.30h - 2h). I sleep at least between four and five hours (except weekends). I work full-time and I'm studying a degree. If I don't do this, I don't have time for everything (see work, study, hobby projects). But it is true that I still feel so unproductive, I can't focus, or it takes me a while and I'm easily distracted, it takes me a long time to think of the correct way to structure a pattern or algorithm... I tried to sleep more, but I always end up feeling overwhelmed by all the tasks.
- rafcavallaro 13y ago
  Unless you are quite unusual, 4-5 hours sleep per day/night is low enough to be bad for your long term health. see http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/white-papers/how-much-sleep-do-adults-need http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/white-papers/how-much... for details.
- mistercow 13y ago
  Is it possible for you to fit short naps (~20 minutes) into your schedule? Supposedly, if you practice napping regularly without letting yourself go over time, you will eventually get to the point that you can fall asleep quickly and immediately begin REM sleep. Assuming that polyphasic sleep schedules are at least as effective as monophasic sleep, one such nap should be worth about an 1h20m of normal sleep. If you can fit even one in, and stick to taking it every day, it could be hugely beneficial. If you can manage to slip three of them in, you might be able to totally counteract the effects of your situation (although people seem to have trouble adopting polyphasic schedules that are designed to fit their schedule, rather than their circadian rhythm).
- beachstartup 13y ago
  if you're feeling overwhelmed (these are your words), why are you doing so much? seriously. why?
  - acuozzo 13y ago
    I challenge you to say this to a poverty-stricken single mother of a mentally-disabled child with no job prospects (due to not having any marketable skills, certifications, or degrees) and a mountain of debt left behind by a dead-beat husband who is incapable of providing child-support due to being an alcoholic bum with no job prospects of his own. This is what my mother-in-law has to deal with every day. Sometimes people "[do] so much" because they have no reasonable alternatives. Being overwhelmed is a fact of life for them.
shire 13y ago
The feeling of going to bed early and waking up with the sunrise is an amazing feeling. To be honest I don't know why we were created with a sleep function, we would get so much done without it. Imagine what mankind would achieve with an extra 12hours!
- pm90 13y ago
  Not much, since for the most part our ancestors did not have illumination at night
jpease 13y ago
My cats should have brains the size of large melons.
amerika_blog 13y ago
Sleep... what a great idea. Someday. It's on the to-do list.

100 points by akandiah 13y ago

Good article. I hope some of these 'brogrammers' read it and realize that programming 20 hours a day is not only shortening your lifespan. It is, literally, making you more stupid.

adamnemecek 13y ago
That's what Red Bull is for, brah. /s
arethuza 13y ago
I wonder if anyone has ever done a statistical analysis of a large project to see when changes that generated bugs were actually performed. I've long suspected that when you see particularly silly bugs committed by people who really do know better there is usually some explanation that can often be that they are tired/stressed/distracted. [NB I know myself that I can do particularly silly things when tired so I will sometimes let myself spend a long time investigating a problem but I won't fix it until the next day.]
- hnbanned 13y ago
  http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-40-hours-a-week-is-useless.html http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-40... The studies showed that there's a short term gain followed by a fall in productivity.
- vidarh 13y ago
  I've had projects where we had to send people home because they became a such a noticeable burden. Personally I wanted to force people out of the office much earlier on one of them because pretty much nothing got done when people were staying late, but it left everyone more tired in the morning, but the CEO was of the "more hours == more work done" mentality and wouldn't listen.
- colanderman 13y ago
  Replying to let hnbanned (see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6319611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6319611) know he's been hellbanned again for no reason. Here's his comment: http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-40-hours-a-week-is-useless.html http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-40... The studies showed that there's a short term gain followed by a fall in productivity.
jwdunne 13y ago
This is interesting actually. I remember a time I stayed up all night trying to get a script for a game working (hobby project). I was hacking away all night until early morning and I just couldn't fix the issues. After a good sleep, I'd fixed the issue and got it working as it should within an hour. The lesson for me was that I shouldn't put my health on the line for these types of things; it doesn't help in actually making progress and it could set my performance back weeks. Another big lesson, which is more general and took a few more mistakes, was the value of stepping away from a problem after intense conscious focus on it. This may or may not mean sleep on it but just means taking your mind off it and let the back of your head tick away on it. I think this might actually be the source of "eureka" moments too, which means flashes of ingenuity are not exactly what they seem!
- RyanMcGreal 13y ago
  I find a brisk walk, jog or bike ride in the middle of the day consistently boosts my productivity.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
mistercow 13y ago
Unless, of course, you're doing polyphasic sleep, in which case eh, maybe?
- pstuart 13y ago
  Every post I've seen about polyphasic sleep shows that it is not sustainable.
  - mistercow 13y ago
    I've read multiple accounts of people who have done it for several months[1][2][3][4]. I have seen only one account of someone quitting after the initial adaptation for any reason other than convenience. I have also read some accounts[5] of people who quit polyphasic, but go back to it in various forms when they have time constraints (and apparently adapting back is not very difficult once you've done it once; my guess is that the ability to nap efficiently is not lost, and is the main stumbling block to getting started). So if by "not sustainable", you mean "very hard to fit into a monophasic sleeping world", then yes, that's true. If you mean "after a week or two, you'll feel exhausted", then yes, that's also true. It takes longer than that to adapt. If you mean "it's not enough sleep even after you adapt", then where are the posts you're talking about? [1] http://ohgodthechicken.com/sleep-discipline-experiment/ http://ohgodthechicken.com/sleep-discipline-experiment/ [2] http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2007/03/polyphasic-sleep-one-year-later/ http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2007/03/polyphasic-sleep-on... [3] http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1095 http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1095 [4] http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1060 http://forum.polyphasicsociety.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1060 [5] http://www.xeeban.com/xeeban/archives/000003.html http://www.xeeban.com/xeeban/archives/000003.html
    - enraged_camel 13y ago
      >>I've read multiple accounts of people who have done it for several months[1][2][3][4]. Your "citations" are impressive, but at the end of the day they are just anecdotal evidence. We also have many accounts of people who claim homeopathy works. Should we believe them?

kvee 13y ago

So will it ever be possible to artificially produce these cells that go on to make myelin and reduce or eliminate the need for sleep?

mistercow 13y ago
Maybe, but I doubt that will be sufficient. Evolution being the opportunistic bastard that it is, it seems likely that lots of little processes have hitched a ride on sleep. There may not be any single factor to take care of which eliminates the need for sleep entirely.
samatman 13y ago
I sure hope so. That's the key tech needed to treat multiple sclerosis, and I have several friends who are sufferers. I doubt it would be sufficient in itself to reduce sleep needs, however. Our bodies are practically speaking modal organisms, and there's a lot we only do when sleeping.
11001 13y ago
Why tricking the nature is so often the first reaction of people around here? Sleep helps replinsh brain cells - let's make a pill that does just that so we don't need to sleep as much! Vegitables are good for you - let's have a pill that has all their nutrients so we don't need to eat them! Exercise betters the mood - let's isolate those chemicals so we don't need to exercise! Being barefoot is good for you - let's all buy "barefoot shoes"! I really don't get it. Why are people so averse to natural ways and ofetn simple moderation. I did not grow up in North America, so maybe it's just a cultural difference.

carnivaloffun 13y ago

This is perhaps the scariest part: The genes involved in cell death and stress responses were turned on when the mice were forced to stay awake.

polskibus 13y ago

This is an important finding, not because it confirms something that seems obvious for many people (ie. prolonged sleep deprivation = worse performance), but because it can help change the dominant management style in companies. Overworking is a very old problem, but hopefully similar findings will boost the strength of counter arguments.

rbanffy 13y ago
I fear overworked managers will not be able to understand the issue.
- kamjam 13y ago
  Maybe after a good nights sleep...
Fishkins 13y ago
Although I agree management styles should change based on studies like this, I'm not optimistic they will (at least not very quickly). Evidence against the efficacy of long work weeks has been around for quite a while[0], but that doesn't seem to stop most managers from expecting employees to work more hours. 0: http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/ http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_...

Sagat 13y ago

I learned early in life that it's better to work intensely and rest a lot than do more work of a lower quality. If you are sleep deprived you might miss insights and opportunities. Time is the most valuable resource in the universe: by staying awake longer you are not gaining time but shortening your available time pool in the long run.

w1ntermute 13y ago

I think everyone owes it to themselves to set aside a few weeks in which they go to sleep early enough that they wake up naturally every day. The feeling is amazing and it does wonders for your productivity.

Tarential 13y ago
It is so good for productivity that I've completely stopped using "staying up late" as a method to get things done. If I have a lot of work to do that's a good sign to get to bed early and start in the morning when I'm fresh. Problems that I spend hours on the night before seem to solve themselves magically in minutes. After a while I got the hint: Just go to bed and sleep. You save time and feel better.

cyeah 13y ago

I have little time. I sometimes overwork one hour or more and I also have a long commute (between 1.30h - 2h). I sleep at least between four and five hours (except weekends). I work full-time and I'm studying a degree. If I don't do this, I don't have time for everything (see work, study, hobby projects). But it is true that I still feel so unproductive, I can't focus, or it takes me a while and I'm easily distracted, it takes me a long time to think of the correct way to structure a pattern or algorithm... I tried to sleep more, but I always end up feeling overwhelmed by all the tasks.

rafcavallaro 13y ago
Unless you are quite unusual, 4-5 hours sleep per day/night is low enough to be bad for your long term health. see http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/white-papers/how-much-sleep-do-adults-need http://www.sleepfoundation.org/article/white-papers/how-much... for details.
mistercow 13y ago
Is it possible for you to fit short naps (~20 minutes) into your schedule? Supposedly, if you practice napping regularly without letting yourself go over time, you will eventually get to the point that you can fall asleep quickly and immediately begin REM sleep. Assuming that polyphasic sleep schedules are at least as effective as monophasic sleep, one such nap should be worth about an 1h20m of normal sleep. If you can fit even one in, and stick to taking it every day, it could be hugely beneficial. If you can manage to slip three of them in, you might be able to totally counteract the effects of your situation (although people seem to have trouble adopting polyphasic schedules that are designed to fit their schedule, rather than their circadian rhythm).
beachstartup 13y ago
if you're feeling overwhelmed (these are your words), why are you doing so much? seriously. why?
- acuozzo 13y ago
  I challenge you to say this to a poverty-stricken single mother of a mentally-disabled child with no job prospects (due to not having any marketable skills, certifications, or degrees) and a mountain of debt left behind by a dead-beat husband who is incapable of providing child-support due to being an alcoholic bum with no job prospects of his own. This is what my mother-in-law has to deal with every day. Sometimes people "[do] so much" because they have no reasonable alternatives. Being overwhelmed is a fact of life for them.

shire 13y ago

The feeling of going to bed early and waking up with the sunrise is an amazing feeling. To be honest I don't know why we were created with a sleep function, we would get so much done without it. Imagine what mankind would achieve with an extra 12hours!

pm90 13y ago
Not much, since for the most part our ancestors did not have illumination at night

jpease 13y ago

My cats should have brains the size of large melons.

amerika_blog 13y ago

Sleep... what a great idea. Someday. It's on the to-do list.