4 ms·

Ok HN, You Were Right. Unpaid Internships Are Wrong

8 points by physcab 17y ago

A while ago I tried to argue (unsuccessfully) that if knowledge was bestowed on ignorant, young interns then an unpaid internship would be justified. Knowledge could be exchanged in lieu of monetary compensation. This was the thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=545335 However, I have since thought about this issue quite a bit and I have come to agree with all of you (or those of you that disagreed). I can say unequivocally now that unpaid internships are wrong. What caused the change of heart? Besides the gradual eating away at my soul, I have recently experienced a very frustrating situation. Last year I found out about a new (unpaid) internship at a company for this summer. I was delighted when they brought me in for an interview because I really really enjoyed this company's product and I really really wanted to have my hand in making it more successful. The problem is that over the course of a year, I gained new skills. The company found out about those skills and knew that I could address a very specific problem they were having. After I was "hired", I tried (unsuccessfully) to negotiate some sort of compensation. They stood firm saying the unpaid internship was a way for them to screen for good employees. A few months ago, I would have agreed with them. Now I see, quite clearly actually, that unpaid internships unfairly take advantage of others. How does one go about to fix this problem?

noodle 17y ago
quit. edit: to elaborate more, tell them that unpaid internships do the exact opposite of what they claim -- they unequivocally screen out good employees. then, quit. if you have to, put in 2 weeks or whatever, but do it ASAP. tell them that there is no negotiation, and if they wish to re-hire you with a salary, they know how to contact you. /my $0.02.
russell 17y ago
I was the engineering manager at a small company quite a while back. A woman asked to work for us for free. She had some experience, but couldnt get a job. It might have been visa issues or something like that. I said no. We didnt have the budget for even a minimal salary and I felt it was wrong to have someone work for nothing. I still feel my decision was right.
RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
It seems that: 1. You have skills they want 2. They believe the experience and knowledge you gain will adequately compensate you for their use of those skills 3. You disagree, and want paying. If they won't negotiate, don't provide your skills to them. Just say no.
TallGuyShort 17y ago
When you agree to 'hire' someone for an unpaid internship, it's usually because they have no experience and can add very little value to your team. However, if you, the intern, find yourself being taken advantage of, that's a sign that you have more leverage than the average unpaid intern. If you had skills that the company needed, and they refused to compensate you appropriately, I would actively start looking for a different place to work, and I would market those skills that I now had "professional experience" with. I'd also let the company know you are doing so - a lot of times they treat the intern like crap because they think "you need us - you won't leave". If they know you are marketing your needed skills elsewhere, they'll think twice.
- anamax 17y ago
  > I'd also let the company know you are doing so Don't. You've already told them that you want to be paid. They've already said no. It's almost always a mistake to threaten. It's almost always a mistake to accept an offer to stay after you've accepted an offer somewhere else. It's almost always a mistake to make an offer to stay to someone who has accepted an offer somewhere else. The only reasonable time to address issues is before the employee has accepted an offer elsewhere.
  - mavelikara 17y ago
    > It's almost always a mistake to accept an offer to stay after you've accepted an offer somewhere else. It's almost always a mistake to make an offer to stay to someone who has accepted an offer somewhere else. Why?
    - anamax 17y ago
      Which one? The relationship is basically broken at that point. The employer is looking to replace you and you're quite willing to leave. (Nope, they're not going to fix what made you want to leave.)
spooneybarger 17y ago
wait how long have you been an unpaid intern? unless it was part time ( couple hours here or there ), anything more than 2-3 months tops should result in the end of the internship.
blurry 17y ago
As wrong as unpaid internships are, you'd agreed to work for the company for a set amount of time on an unpaid basis. Changing your mind after the fact is unfair both to the company and the next-in-line would-be intern whose place you took. Or, think about it this way - if you are a kid who's been taken advantage of, maybe you deserve to be paid as such. If on the other hand you are an adult capable of making informed decisions and sticking to your commitments, then a couple months at a company whose awesome product you clearly admire shouldn't be that hard. Take some responsibility and finish what you started. Or at least bow out gracefully by giving them sufficient notice and finding a replacement.
pavel_lishin 17y ago
I'm confused about what happened. You accepted an unpaid internship position, provided something of value to the company, and are now upset that they will not pay you for your unpaid position?
vishaldpatel 17y ago
Quit. They don't value you enough to want to pay you. Get the hell out of there.
- vishaldpatel 17y ago
  And if "quitting" feels like being a loser... then MOVE ON instead.
imichael 17y ago
You were willing to work for nothing because of what you might learn. For one thine, you didn't know that you had skills that were worth money. Now you see that you do. You probably learned a lot of other things too. I also think that an internship should always be a two way street, with each party doing something to help the other. I would certainly expect the person in your position to make a contribution. The other guys are spending time on you, and taking a little bit of a risk. You already wrote off the summer and the paycheck. Do what you can and see how it plays out. You could be pleasantly surprised. The probability of that certainly goes up when you do something of value.
lacker 17y ago
Your complaint doesn't make sense to me. If you think your skills deserve money, then find an internship or job where you get paid. This company isn't forcing you to work for them. How can you say their internship offer is "unfairly taking advantage" of you? It sounds like you really want to work for this company, but you feel insulted that they are not paying you. It is not the best situation, but if you have no better offers then why not do it. In the long run the only way to "fix this problem" is to get enough skills that you can easily get real jobs or start your own venture. And this internship sounds like it could help.

8 points by physcab 17y ago

noodle 17y ago

quit. edit: to elaborate more, tell them that unpaid internships do the exact opposite of what they claim -- they unequivocally screen out good employees. then, quit. if you have to, put in 2 weeks or whatever, but do it ASAP. tell them that there is no negotiation, and if they wish to re-hire you with a salary, they know how to contact you. /my $0.02.

russell 17y ago

I was the engineering manager at a small company quite a while back. A woman asked to work for us for free. She had some experience, but couldnt get a job. It might have been visa issues or something like that. I said no. We didnt have the budget for even a minimal salary and I felt it was wrong to have someone work for nothing. I still feel my decision was right.

RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago

It seems that: 1. You have skills they want 2. They believe the experience and knowledge you gain will adequately compensate you for their use of those skills 3. You disagree, and want paying. If they won't negotiate, don't provide your skills to them. Just say no.

TallGuyShort 17y ago

When you agree to 'hire' someone for an unpaid internship, it's usually because they have no experience and can add very little value to your team. However, if you, the intern, find yourself being taken advantage of, that's a sign that you have more leverage than the average unpaid intern. If you had skills that the company needed, and they refused to compensate you appropriately, I would actively start looking for a different place to work, and I would market those skills that I now had "professional experience" with. I'd also let the company know you are doing so - a lot of times they treat the intern like crap because they think "you need us - you won't leave". If they know you are marketing your needed skills elsewhere, they'll think twice.

anamax 17y ago
> I'd also let the company know you are doing so Don't. You've already told them that you want to be paid. They've already said no. It's almost always a mistake to threaten. It's almost always a mistake to accept an offer to stay after you've accepted an offer somewhere else. It's almost always a mistake to make an offer to stay to someone who has accepted an offer somewhere else. The only reasonable time to address issues is before the employee has accepted an offer elsewhere.
- mavelikara 17y ago
  > It's almost always a mistake to accept an offer to stay after you've accepted an offer somewhere else. It's almost always a mistake to make an offer to stay to someone who has accepted an offer somewhere else. Why?
  - anamax 17y ago
    Which one? The relationship is basically broken at that point. The employer is looking to replace you and you're quite willing to leave. (Nope, they're not going to fix what made you want to leave.)

spooneybarger 17y ago

wait how long have you been an unpaid intern? unless it was part time ( couple hours here or there ), anything more than 2-3 months tops should result in the end of the internship.

blurry 17y ago

As wrong as unpaid internships are, you'd agreed to work for the company for a set amount of time on an unpaid basis. Changing your mind after the fact is unfair both to the company and the next-in-line would-be intern whose place you took. Or, think about it this way - if you are a kid who's been taken advantage of, maybe you deserve to be paid as such. If on the other hand you are an adult capable of making informed decisions and sticking to your commitments, then a couple months at a company whose awesome product you clearly admire shouldn't be that hard. Take some responsibility and finish what you started. Or at least bow out gracefully by giving them sufficient notice and finding a replacement.

pavel_lishin 17y ago

I'm confused about what happened. You accepted an unpaid internship position, provided something of value to the company, and are now upset that they will not pay you for your unpaid position?

vishaldpatel 17y ago

Quit. They don't value you enough to want to pay you. Get the hell out of there.

vishaldpatel 17y ago
And if "quitting" feels like being a loser... then MOVE ON instead.

imichael 17y ago

You were willing to work for nothing because of what you might learn. For one thine, you didn't know that you had skills that were worth money. Now you see that you do. You probably learned a lot of other things too. I also think that an internship should always be a two way street, with each party doing something to help the other. I would certainly expect the person in your position to make a contribution. The other guys are spending time on you, and taking a little bit of a risk. You already wrote off the summer and the paycheck. Do what you can and see how it plays out. You could be pleasantly surprised. The probability of that certainly goes up when you do something of value.

lacker 17y ago

Your complaint doesn't make sense to me. If you think your skills deserve money, then find an internship or job where you get paid. This company isn't forcing you to work for them. How can you say their internship offer is "unfairly taking advantage" of you? It sounds like you really want to work for this company, but you feel insulted that they are not paying you. It is not the best situation, but if you have no better offers then why not do it. In the long run the only way to "fix this problem" is to get enough skills that you can easily get real jobs or start your own venture. And this internship sounds like it could help.