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> Apple already lost to Android. That's not true. Apple's mobile devices are more profitable than any single line of Android devices. Also, sales of the iPad v

> Apple already lost to Android. That's not true. Apple's mobile devices are more profitable than any single line of Android devices. Also, sales of the iPad vs any other line of Android tablets, ie. Samsung's are not even close. Your comparison is no different than comparing Windows Server vs Linux servers. Yes, it might have hurt the market for WinServer a little bit (and Apple's iOS devices), but it's not like anyone is making a killing off of all those Linux/Android powered devices out there. When comparing what Android itself as a free platform (mostly free, there are contracts for Google's services that most sign onto)- iOS is far more profitable for Apple than Android is for Google. What you're repeating is common man nonsense. Secondly, FirefoxOS and Ubuntu Mobile will be cheaper devices and likely only cut into Android's marketshare. Add in Tizen, which is being specifically created to STOP paying fees to Google for Android, and you will see your 'zero chance' of Android's 80% marketshare changing. And sooner than you believe. Android has the most precarious position as a 'free' choice. There are many more entrants on the way for the cheap market. The war is just getting started, and I'd rather be in Apple's shoes than Google's (but you act as if Google cares about Android, they don't- it's just a delivery mechanism for their services). Signed by someone who uses a GS3.

macspoofing 13y ago
>Your comparison is no different than comparing Windows Server vs Linux servers. I think a better comparison is Mac vs. Windows. Windows won, but Macs are still thriving, and Apple is making nice margins. This is how I see iOS vs. Android playing out.
- cageface 13y ago
  Perhaps, but the difference here is that Macs are still better machines in most respects. Macs endure as a niche product because they're higher quality products. Premium Android phones, on the other hand, provide a user experience that a lot of people consider superior.
  - philwelch 13y ago
    Some people prefer Windows to Mac OS, too, so I really don't see your point.
    - cageface 13y ago
      Not really sure how I can make this point more simply. In order to survive as a niche product you have to offer a significantly better or at least different experience. I'm sitting here right now in a coworking space in Vietnam full of developers. Ratio of MacBooks to PCs is about 15:1, which is pretty typical for any group of technical people I've been around.
      - mkr-hn 13y ago
        > In order to survive as a niche product you have to offer a significantly better or at least different experience Like Gentoo I always saw Apple products as a niche for people who like Apple's aesthetic. This turf war was tiring when Apple had an almost credible claim to technical superiority and I had to listen to Apple PC users rant and rave. Nowadays it's a lot more fun with Google, Microsoft, and their partners making Apple and its supporters wince.
      - chris_mahan 13y ago
        I develop on google's CR-48, by using ssh and remoting into linux servers. (trick: use ctrl+alt+o to save buffer in nano in ssh, because ctrl+o launches chrome open file dialog) The CR-48 has 8-9 hours of battery life. Also, if someone steals my laptop, I can replace it with this ( https://play.google.com/store/devices/details?id=chromebook_acer_c710_snbssd https://play.google.com/store/devices/details?id=chromebook_... ) and lose nothing, since the passwords/ip addresses/etc are not stored on the machines, and no code is stored on the machine.
  - gnaffle 13y ago
    Actually, it's very similar to the laptop market. A lot of people prefer Windows or Linux on Lenovo laptops, because they have some features that Macs don't have. Likewise, if you compare the hardware (build quality etc) I think most people would agree that Apple still is has the best devices compared to Samsung, which still uses the same plastic frame even on high end phones.
alextingle 13y ago
> but it's not like anyone is making a killing off of all those Linux/Android powered devices out there. Except the users. Users win big time when there's an effective open source option for them to choose.
- zuppy 13y ago
  Not really, users don't care about open source. Users care about apps and services. Most developers care about the platform with more users that are willing to spend money on apps and services. I'm not saying that there are no open source fans, just that this is not what brings the food on your plate at the end of the month.
  - Ygg2 13y ago
    I think grandparent meant that users win out because open source almost guarantees that software stack will survive any hardships that mother company might not survive, as well as extra competition from open source alternatives.
    - rayiner 13y ago
      Who cares about that when it comes to phones, though?
      - pm90 13y ago
        I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. The users 'care' even if they don't realize it. Developers care because they can continue to target a platform that they are familiar with and which has been tested well.
        rayiner 13y ago
        Sure, that gives a platform a certain level of inertia, but I don't know how much it matters. Developers will go where the users are. It's not like in the PC space where Windows managed to really entrench itself based on compatibility with mission critical apps. Who cares if closed-source means you have to get a new Twitter client?
ZeroGravitas 13y ago
Samsung's line of Android devices became more profitable than Apple's iPhones at some point during, or just before this quarter (it's a bit vague because it's all based on estimates but it's basically happened already, we'll get the analyst estimates based on corporate announcements about a month after the end of the quarter). Some would consider that "making a killing".
- rsynnott 13y ago
  This was based on the Strategy Analytics report? That was a little dubious, as it was based on saying that (a) half of Apple's profits are from the iPhone and (b) Samsung makes no profit on its desktop, laptop or tablet divisions at all. There was also some confusion over net vs gross.
  - ZeroGravitas 13y ago
    If you don't like that report you can check out two others that are provided by sources that most would describe as "rabidly pro-Apple". The trend is pretty clear and has been for a while so I'm not sure why everyone seems so suprised by this. Though given Apple's yearly cycle which has a slump in Q3 and a big spike in Q4 they may briefly reclaim the crown in Q4 if their next launch does well. Strategy Analytics: http://bgr.com/2013/07/26/samsung-smartphone-profits-q2-2013-apple/ http://bgr.com/2013/07/26/samsung-smartphone-profits-q2-2013... Canaccord Genuity: http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/31/apple-takes-53-of-smartphone-profits-samsung-at-50-remainder-lose-money http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/31/apple-takes-53-of-... Asymco: http://www.asymco.com/2013/08/21/amp-index-update/ http://www.asymco.com/2013/08/21/amp-index-update/ They're all for the quarter that ended two months ago and say (Samsung-Apple) 53%-47%, 50-53% and 43%-57% respectively and they were all at more like 15-80% two years ago.
    - rsynnott 13y ago
      Not sure how you're getting that from the Asymco one... The Canaccord one does seem to note that Samsung's "handset" division incorporates tablets and PCs, and that their estimate for the iPhone's share of Apple's profits is fuzzy (we know Apple's revenue per division, but not profit; Strategy Analytics and Canaccord seem to have decided that profit per division is proportional to revenue, which is a bit of a leap...)
niklas_a 13y ago
It depends on how you define "winning". I would say that Google won - their goal was to get as many devices as possible using Google as their default search engine and running the Google suite of apps. A few years ago there was a real risk that Apple would start dropping Google services (ref Apple Maps). Fortunately for Google, iCloud is a mess and Apple is so far away from Google in the services-game that it's not even funny. Then they have the added hedge of Android which they have full control over. Basically, Google already has Apple by the balls. In a power struggle between the two, Google will come out on top. Android is certainly an important piece to this puzzle, but saying that Android is "winning/losing" is framing the problem incorrectly.

macspoofing 13y ago

>Your comparison is no different than comparing Windows Server vs Linux servers. I think a better comparison is Mac vs. Windows. Windows won, but Macs are still thriving, and Apple is making nice margins. This is how I see iOS vs. Android playing out.

cageface 13y ago
Perhaps, but the difference here is that Macs are still better machines in most respects. Macs endure as a niche product because they're higher quality products. Premium Android phones, on the other hand, provide a user experience that a lot of people consider superior.
- philwelch 13y ago
  Some people prefer Windows to Mac OS, too, so I really don't see your point.
  - cageface 13y ago
    Not really sure how I can make this point more simply. In order to survive as a niche product you have to offer a significantly better or at least different experience. I'm sitting here right now in a coworking space in Vietnam full of developers. Ratio of MacBooks to PCs is about 15:1, which is pretty typical for any group of technical people I've been around.
    - mkr-hn 13y ago
      > In order to survive as a niche product you have to offer a significantly better or at least different experience Like Gentoo I always saw Apple products as a niche for people who like Apple's aesthetic. This turf war was tiring when Apple had an almost credible claim to technical superiority and I had to listen to Apple PC users rant and rave. Nowadays it's a lot more fun with Google, Microsoft, and their partners making Apple and its supporters wince.
    - chris_mahan 13y ago
      I develop on google's CR-48, by using ssh and remoting into linux servers. (trick: use ctrl+alt+o to save buffer in nano in ssh, because ctrl+o launches chrome open file dialog) The CR-48 has 8-9 hours of battery life. Also, if someone steals my laptop, I can replace it with this ( https://play.google.com/store/devices/details?id=chromebook_acer_c710_snbssd https://play.google.com/store/devices/details?id=chromebook_... ) and lose nothing, since the passwords/ip addresses/etc are not stored on the machines, and no code is stored on the machine.
- gnaffle 13y ago
  Actually, it's very similar to the laptop market. A lot of people prefer Windows or Linux on Lenovo laptops, because they have some features that Macs don't have. Likewise, if you compare the hardware (build quality etc) I think most people would agree that Apple still is has the best devices compared to Samsung, which still uses the same plastic frame even on high end phones.

alextingle 13y ago

> but it's not like anyone is making a killing off of all those Linux/Android powered devices out there. Except the users. Users win big time when there's an effective open source option for them to choose.

zuppy 13y ago
Not really, users don't care about open source. Users care about apps and services. Most developers care about the platform with more users that are willing to spend money on apps and services. I'm not saying that there are no open source fans, just that this is not what brings the food on your plate at the end of the month.
- Ygg2 13y ago
  I think grandparent meant that users win out because open source almost guarantees that software stack will survive any hardships that mother company might not survive, as well as extra competition from open source alternatives.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Who cares about that when it comes to phones, though?
    - pm90 13y ago
      I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. The users 'care' even if they don't realize it. Developers care because they can continue to target a platform that they are familiar with and which has been tested well.
      - rayiner 13y ago
        Sure, that gives a platform a certain level of inertia, but I don't know how much it matters. Developers will go where the users are. It's not like in the PC space where Windows managed to really entrench itself based on compatibility with mission critical apps. Who cares if closed-source means you have to get a new Twitter client?

ZeroGravitas 13y ago

Samsung's line of Android devices became more profitable than Apple's iPhones at some point during, or just before this quarter (it's a bit vague because it's all based on estimates but it's basically happened already, we'll get the analyst estimates based on corporate announcements about a month after the end of the quarter). Some would consider that "making a killing".

rsynnott 13y ago
This was based on the Strategy Analytics report? That was a little dubious, as it was based on saying that (a) half of Apple's profits are from the iPhone and (b) Samsung makes no profit on its desktop, laptop or tablet divisions at all. There was also some confusion over net vs gross.
- ZeroGravitas 13y ago
  If you don't like that report you can check out two others that are provided by sources that most would describe as "rabidly pro-Apple". The trend is pretty clear and has been for a while so I'm not sure why everyone seems so suprised by this. Though given Apple's yearly cycle which has a slump in Q3 and a big spike in Q4 they may briefly reclaim the crown in Q4 if their next launch does well. Strategy Analytics: http://bgr.com/2013/07/26/samsung-smartphone-profits-q2-2013-apple/ http://bgr.com/2013/07/26/samsung-smartphone-profits-q2-2013... Canaccord Genuity: http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/31/apple-takes-53-of-smartphone-profits-samsung-at-50-remainder-lose-money http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/07/31/apple-takes-53-of-... Asymco: http://www.asymco.com/2013/08/21/amp-index-update/ http://www.asymco.com/2013/08/21/amp-index-update/ They're all for the quarter that ended two months ago and say (Samsung-Apple) 53%-47%, 50-53% and 43%-57% respectively and they were all at more like 15-80% two years ago.
  - rsynnott 13y ago
    Not sure how you're getting that from the Asymco one... The Canaccord one does seem to note that Samsung's "handset" division incorporates tablets and PCs, and that their estimate for the iPhone's share of Apple's profits is fuzzy (we know Apple's revenue per division, but not profit; Strategy Analytics and Canaccord seem to have decided that profit per division is proportional to revenue, which is a bit of a leap...)

niklas_a 13y ago

It depends on how you define "winning". I would say that Google won - their goal was to get as many devices as possible using Google as their default search engine and running the Google suite of apps. A few years ago there was a real risk that Apple would start dropping Google services (ref Apple Maps). Fortunately for Google, iCloud is a mess and Apple is so far away from Google in the services-game that it's not even funny. Then they have the added hedge of Android which they have full control over. Basically, Google already has Apple by the balls. In a power struggle between the two, Google will come out on top. Android is certainly an important piece to this puzzle, but saying that Android is "winning/losing" is framing the problem incorrectly.