10 ms·

On Friday I sat in a bank

52 points by kumarski 13y ago

salmonellaeater 13y ago
Ungepatched: Yiddish for "all mixed up."
- kumarski 13y ago
  Sorry about that. My vernacular is lazily eclectic at times. Added your edit.
jedunnigan 13y ago
'Sweetest' use cases? Well that depends on who you ask, of course. IMO, the value proposition of Bitcoin's underlying protocol is enormous. You can strip away the coin and manipulate the protocol for alternative use cases, such as carbon dating (voting, prior art, etc...) [1], carbon emissions trading platforms [2], the preservation of open data [3], reputation scoring for TTPs [4], messaging systems [5], decentralized asset exchanges [6], etc... As for more traditional use cases Bitcoin obviously shines in bankless states with weak national currencies. In the same vein Bitcoin offers protection from seizure of funds during bail-ins and the like. In the context of donations Bitcoin is awesome as well; without Bitcoins wikileaks would have some trouble accepting donations. The list is endless, really. Every use case is powerful. [1] CommitCoin: http://eprint.iacr.org/2011/677.pdf http://eprint.iacr.org/2011/677.pdf [2] CarboCoin: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6468350 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=64683... [3] http://btcgsa.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Decentralized-Hosting-and-Preservation-of-Open-Data.pdf http://btcgsa.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Decentralized-... [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6550483 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnum... [5] BitMessage [6] BitShares, MasterCoin, Freimarkets
simonw 13y ago
As a Brit who has spent some time in the US, the US banking system is bafflingly backward... * No chip and pin. You still sign credit card slips. * You have to interact with the branch where you set up your account for a bewildering array of things. * Sending a wire transfer overseas involves sitting in a branch and filling in reams of paper work. * Wells Fargo branch staff (who I've found to be excellent) seem to actively conspire with you against their own bank. I have an account with a $150 sum that automatically cycles back and forth between chequing and savings, configured by the bank staff to avoid fees being charged on the account. * Bank account numbers are treated as secret information - they are starred out in the online banking interface! Apparently, it I know your bank account number I can take your money? * People still use cheques for things! Which you have to pay extra for (you actually buy cheques from your bank). And "electronic banking" incorporates mobile apps that scan cheques. * As a general rule, paying someone some money (for rent, for example) is fraught with difficulty, especially if you hold a non-US bank account. * No obvious equivalent to the UK direct debit system for automatic bill payments. Coming from Europe, It all feels decidedly third rate. I don't think the solution is bitcoin, I think the solution is fixing regular banking.
- Swizec 13y ago
  The first time I was in the US there was a commercial playing on the radio frequently from a company that would help you pay regular expenses. You take a photo of your cheques for rent and utilities and send them to the company. They will then photoshop new info onto the cheques every month and make sure your stuff is paid for a small fee. Essentially you pay somebody to do cheque fraud on your behalf. And that's a thing that works in the US. Honestly, every time I hear anything about the US banking system I get goosebumps. It's frightening. Like, for instance, Mint can get to all your bank info with just username/password. No RSA certificates required for logging in. Scary.
  - simonw 13y ago
    That's hilarious.
  - Nicholas_C 13y ago
    >It's frightening. Like, for instance, Mint can get to all your bank info with just username/password. Well, they also use your security questions. How is that frightening? It's not any different than logging into your bank account normally except that a website does it for you.
    - Swizec 13y ago
      Exactly. That's the frightening part. I'm used to needing RSA and a password and there's special bits of the website that ensure it's not phishable. And if I mistype my password three times I have to personally go to the bank and show government issued ID to get it reset.
- techsupporter 13y ago
  This is definitely "your mileage may vary." > * No chip and pin. You still sign credit card slips. Well, there's "just PIN," but yeah. > * You have to interact with the branch where you set up your account for a bewildering array of things. I opened my last two bank (checking and savings) accounts entirely online, one with an online-focused bank (USAA) and one as brick and mortar (technically, a credit union, but same basic concept), no visit necessary. > * Sending a wire transfer overseas involves sitting in a branch and filling in reams of paper work. Chase let me send a wire transfer internationally (to a foreign government, no less) entirely through their online banking system. The "privilege" cost me $40 (damn) but it did work. > * Bank account numbers are treated as secret information - they are starred out in the online banking interface! Apparently, it I know your bank account number I can take your money? Yep, unfortunately. That goes along with: > * No obvious equivalent to the UK direct debit system for automatic bill payments. I can give my routing number and bank account number to a biller and they can cheerfully slurp as much money as they like from my account. Hopefully it's the correct amount. If it isn't, there's a regulation that allows me to fix it but it takes a few days and phone calls. > * People still use cheques for things! Which you have to pay extra for (you actually buy cheques from your bank). And "electronic banking" incorporates mobile apps that scan cheques. I buy checks from Checks-in-the-Mail, a third-party reseller, for a few bucks every couple of years because... > * As a general rule, paying someone some money (for rent, for example) is fraught with difficulty, especially if you hold a non-US bank account. I write checks for my rent. My apartment building has an online payment system but charges $4.95 for the "privilege" of paying electronically or $39.95 (holy cow) to pay by debit or credit card. Sadly, paying by sliding a check under the door of the management office is still free, so I do that.
prawn 13y ago
Very slightly related (given stored value and less-than-safe areas): would it be possible to create a system for travelling safely with money? Let's say I want to ride across Africa, but I'm worried about being robbed. Cash can be taken, credit cards can be stolen and abused or even just skimmed and abused. And even if credit card abuse is rectified, you're still stuck waiting for a replacement. A pin-only card for ATMs with a duress code that limits a transaction?
- jacques_chester 13y ago
  The old way was these babies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveler's_cheque http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveler's_cheque These days, you can buy prepaid travelling credit cards. I picked up one recently ahead of a trip to the USA. They actually send two cards, a primary and a secondary, so that you have a backup if the primary is lost or stolen.
  - ewood 13y ago
    And put your secondary card in a pair of these: http://gearjunkie.com/zip-it-gear-socks-with-zippers http://gearjunkie.com/zip-it-gear-socks-with-zippers
    - jacques_chester 13y ago
      ... or I could leave it at the hotel.
      - prawn 13y ago
        Which assumes you're staying in a trustworthy hotel with trustworthy staff, and doesn't cover situations when you're between hotels. (I've had money stolen from my bag in Vietnam and my card skimmed in Italy.)
        jacques_chester 13y ago
        True. I'm actually staying in some rental apartments -- no staff. The secondary card is inert until I contact the provider to activate it. Bigger hotels also have secure boxes or lockers for customers.
lmartel 13y ago
Completely off-topic: I enjoy when automatically generated blog urls give me a window into the writer's thought process. I agree, Kumar, "On Friday I sat in a bank" sounds better as a post title than "I sat in a bank on Friday"
- kumarski 13y ago
  What? Wow. Thanks for pointing that out. It's frustrating to be manipulated like that. I used that syntax with purpose.
varunkho 13y ago
In India online banking is awesome: 1) Most (all?) banks have net banking which is a feature to pay money directly from your bank account (and not via credit card) to online merchants those who integrate it (most of them do). 2) Many banks provide utilities payment (electricity/phone/cable ETC) feature which can be set to autopay. 3) there's a three factor authentication system – username and password to login and look around, transaction password to pay to your registered billers and finally for online shopping (net banking), you are asked to input 3 random numbers from the grid printed at the back of your debit card in addition to login and transaction password. 4) For any decent amount of payment received / paid (I think Rs. 5000 or above), you get an sms briefing the transaction. 5) Auto deduct feature – there's an ECS form you can sign and give it to businesses which can then automatically deduct money monthly from your bank account. Good for auto mortgage payments et al. Checks have almost disappeared from internet savvy people's lives – I have hardly used them in years.

52 points by kumarski 13y ago

salmonellaeater 13y ago

Ungepatched: Yiddish for "all mixed up."

kumarski 13y ago
Sorry about that. My vernacular is lazily eclectic at times. Added your edit.

jedunnigan 13y ago

'Sweetest' use cases? Well that depends on who you ask, of course. IMO, the value proposition of Bitcoin's underlying protocol is enormous. You can strip away the coin and manipulate the protocol for alternative use cases, such as carbon dating (voting, prior art, etc...) [1], carbon emissions trading platforms [2], the preservation of open data [3], reputation scoring for TTPs [4], messaging systems [5], decentralized asset exchanges [6], etc... As for more traditional use cases Bitcoin obviously shines in bankless states with weak national currencies. In the same vein Bitcoin offers protection from seizure of funds during bail-ins and the like. In the context of donations Bitcoin is awesome as well; without Bitcoins wikileaks would have some trouble accepting donations. The list is endless, really. Every use case is powerful. [1] CommitCoin: http://eprint.iacr.org/2011/677.pdf http://eprint.iacr.org/2011/677.pdf [2] CarboCoin: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6468350 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=64683... [3] http://btcgsa.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Decentralized-Hosting-and-Preservation-of-Open-Data.pdf http://btcgsa.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Decentralized-... [4] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6550483 https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?tp=&arnum... [5] BitMessage [6] BitShares, MasterCoin, Freimarkets

simonw 13y ago

As a Brit who has spent some time in the US, the US banking system is bafflingly backward... * No chip and pin. You still sign credit card slips. * You have to interact with the branch where you set up your account for a bewildering array of things. * Sending a wire transfer overseas involves sitting in a branch and filling in reams of paper work. * Wells Fargo branch staff (who I've found to be excellent) seem to actively conspire with you against their own bank. I have an account with a $150 sum that automatically cycles back and forth between chequing and savings, configured by the bank staff to avoid fees being charged on the account. * Bank account numbers are treated as secret information - they are starred out in the online banking interface! Apparently, it I know your bank account number I can take your money? * People still use cheques for things! Which you have to pay extra for (you actually buy cheques from your bank). And "electronic banking" incorporates mobile apps that scan cheques. * As a general rule, paying someone some money (for rent, for example) is fraught with difficulty, especially if you hold a non-US bank account. * No obvious equivalent to the UK direct debit system for automatic bill payments. Coming from Europe, It all feels decidedly third rate. I don't think the solution is bitcoin, I think the solution is fixing regular banking.

Swizec 13y ago
The first time I was in the US there was a commercial playing on the radio frequently from a company that would help you pay regular expenses. You take a photo of your cheques for rent and utilities and send them to the company. They will then photoshop new info onto the cheques every month and make sure your stuff is paid for a small fee. Essentially you pay somebody to do cheque fraud on your behalf. And that's a thing that works in the US. Honestly, every time I hear anything about the US banking system I get goosebumps. It's frightening. Like, for instance, Mint can get to all your bank info with just username/password. No RSA certificates required for logging in. Scary.
- simonw 13y ago
  That's hilarious.
- Nicholas_C 13y ago
  >It's frightening. Like, for instance, Mint can get to all your bank info with just username/password. Well, they also use your security questions. How is that frightening? It's not any different than logging into your bank account normally except that a website does it for you.
  - Swizec 13y ago
    Exactly. That's the frightening part. I'm used to needing RSA and a password and there's special bits of the website that ensure it's not phishable. And if I mistype my password three times I have to personally go to the bank and show government issued ID to get it reset.
techsupporter 13y ago
This is definitely "your mileage may vary." > * No chip and pin. You still sign credit card slips. Well, there's "just PIN," but yeah. > * You have to interact with the branch where you set up your account for a bewildering array of things. I opened my last two bank (checking and savings) accounts entirely online, one with an online-focused bank (USAA) and one as brick and mortar (technically, a credit union, but same basic concept), no visit necessary. > * Sending a wire transfer overseas involves sitting in a branch and filling in reams of paper work. Chase let me send a wire transfer internationally (to a foreign government, no less) entirely through their online banking system. The "privilege" cost me $40 (damn) but it did work. > * Bank account numbers are treated as secret information - they are starred out in the online banking interface! Apparently, it I know your bank account number I can take your money? Yep, unfortunately. That goes along with: > * No obvious equivalent to the UK direct debit system for automatic bill payments. I can give my routing number and bank account number to a biller and they can cheerfully slurp as much money as they like from my account. Hopefully it's the correct amount. If it isn't, there's a regulation that allows me to fix it but it takes a few days and phone calls. > * People still use cheques for things! Which you have to pay extra for (you actually buy cheques from your bank). And "electronic banking" incorporates mobile apps that scan cheques. I buy checks from Checks-in-the-Mail, a third-party reseller, for a few bucks every couple of years because... > * As a general rule, paying someone some money (for rent, for example) is fraught with difficulty, especially if you hold a non-US bank account. I write checks for my rent. My apartment building has an online payment system but charges $4.95 for the "privilege" of paying electronically or $39.95 (holy cow) to pay by debit or credit card. Sadly, paying by sliding a check under the door of the management office is still free, so I do that.

prawn 13y ago

Very slightly related (given stored value and less-than-safe areas): would it be possible to create a system for travelling safely with money? Let's say I want to ride across Africa, but I'm worried about being robbed. Cash can be taken, credit cards can be stolen and abused or even just skimmed and abused. And even if credit card abuse is rectified, you're still stuck waiting for a replacement. A pin-only card for ATMs with a duress code that limits a transaction?

jacques_chester 13y ago
The old way was these babies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveler's_cheque http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveler's_cheque These days, you can buy prepaid travelling credit cards. I picked up one recently ahead of a trip to the USA. They actually send two cards, a primary and a secondary, so that you have a backup if the primary is lost or stolen.
- ewood 13y ago
  And put your secondary card in a pair of these: http://gearjunkie.com/zip-it-gear-socks-with-zippers http://gearjunkie.com/zip-it-gear-socks-with-zippers
  - jacques_chester 13y ago
    ... or I could leave it at the hotel.
    - prawn 13y ago
      Which assumes you're staying in a trustworthy hotel with trustworthy staff, and doesn't cover situations when you're between hotels. (I've had money stolen from my bag in Vietnam and my card skimmed in Italy.)
      - jacques_chester 13y ago
        True. I'm actually staying in some rental apartments -- no staff. The secondary card is inert until I contact the provider to activate it. Bigger hotels also have secure boxes or lockers for customers.

lmartel 13y ago

Completely off-topic: I enjoy when automatically generated blog urls give me a window into the writer's thought process. I agree, Kumar, "On Friday I sat in a bank" sounds better as a post title than "I sat in a bank on Friday"

kumarski 13y ago
What? Wow. Thanks for pointing that out. It's frustrating to be manipulated like that. I used that syntax with purpose.

varunkho 13y ago

In India online banking is awesome: 1) Most (all?) banks have net banking which is a feature to pay money directly from your bank account (and not via credit card) to online merchants those who integrate it (most of them do). 2) Many banks provide utilities payment (electricity/phone/cable ETC) feature which can be set to autopay. 3) there's a three factor authentication system – username and password to login and look around, transaction password to pay to your registered billers and finally for online shopping (net banking), you are asked to input 3 random numbers from the grid printed at the back of your debit card in addition to login and transaction password. 4) For any decent amount of payment received / paid (I think Rs. 5000 or above), you get an sms briefing the transaction. 5) Auto deduct feature – there's an ECS form you can sign and give it to businesses which can then automatically deduct money monthly from your bank account. Good for auto mortgage payments et al. Checks have almost disappeared from internet savvy people's lives – I have hardly used them in years.