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> Mediterranean Lingua Franca was a pidgin: “a simplified language that develops as a means of communication between two or more groups that do not have a langu

> Mediterranean Lingua Franca was a pidgin: “a simplified language that develops as a means of communication between two or more groups that do not have a language in common”. English, instead, is a full-blown language. Since modern English was the result of combining Old English and French, you don't consider Germanic and Latin languages to be far enough apart to be pidgin? Things that got simplified: 1. Gender of nouns (they are largely gone) 2. Declensions. 3. Verb conjugation.

simonebrunozzi 13y ago
I don't understand your point. I am not a linguist, but in my humble opinion, pidgin doesn't measure how far two languages are; it rather is the semplification of a language (e.g. Latin, or Italian) in order to make it easier to understand and speak by non natives. Please tell me what your point was, as I don't know what to answer :)
- jpmattia 13y ago
  Sorry for not being more clear. > it rather is the semplification of a language (e.g. Latin, or Italian) in order to make it easier to understand and speak by non natives. This is exactly what happened to English; English used to have a great deal more complexity, until the French conquered England. That started a great simplification, so that the court (which was French) and the people (which spoke a very Germanic English) could communicate. Even things like whether a table is male or female (exists in Italian, no?) were removed from English.
  - simonebrunozzi 13y ago
    Ah, I didn't know it. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing it.
  - Farced 13y ago
    The problem is that you are assuming that is only a single form of complexity, while yes the declensions and conjugations have since disappeared in English (and most of the West European languages) the complexity of the word order (syntax) has increased substantially. Also, the reduction of the morphological complexity in English PRE-DATES the Norman invasion. So, it had nothing to do with the French rulers. Not to say that they didn't leave a mark on the language in other ways.
    - eru 13y ago
      > while yes the declensions and conjugations have since disappeared in English (and most of the West European languages) Which languages are you talking about?
snoonan 13y ago
A lot of the simplicity also came from contact with the Danes during the Danelaw period, effecting a sort of pidgin understandable by both Danish and English speakers in the area. We shaved off a lot of the inflections there as well. Over the last 1000 years or so, few can argue that English has more or less normalized these earlier influences into a "full-blown language" as the author states. It's extremely rich and has ways to express whatever was formally contained in its Germanic grammatical roots. What's GREAT about English from a learning perspective is that we DID hang on to a few pidgin aspects. Loss of tense and case inflections make English easier. Mastering its nuanced use is difficult, sure... but outside the US and the UK, you people don't really hold you to knowing which words collocate perfectly with others. In the next few decades, billions more functional English users will be minted on this planet. Native speakers can look forward to either cringing or embracing innovations that arise from that. It's an interesting time.
deleted 13y ago
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simonebrunozzi 13y ago

I don't understand your point. I am not a linguist, but in my humble opinion, pidgin doesn't measure how far two languages are; it rather is the semplification of a language (e.g. Latin, or Italian) in order to make it easier to understand and speak by non natives. Please tell me what your point was, as I don't know what to answer :)

jpmattia 13y ago
Sorry for not being more clear. > it rather is the semplification of a language (e.g. Latin, or Italian) in order to make it easier to understand and speak by non natives. This is exactly what happened to English; English used to have a great deal more complexity, until the French conquered England. That started a great simplification, so that the court (which was French) and the people (which spoke a very Germanic English) could communicate. Even things like whether a table is male or female (exists in Italian, no?) were removed from English.
- simonebrunozzi 13y ago
  Ah, I didn't know it. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing it.
- Farced 13y ago
  The problem is that you are assuming that is only a single form of complexity, while yes the declensions and conjugations have since disappeared in English (and most of the West European languages) the complexity of the word order (syntax) has increased substantially. Also, the reduction of the morphological complexity in English PRE-DATES the Norman invasion. So, it had nothing to do with the French rulers. Not to say that they didn't leave a mark on the language in other ways.
  - eru 13y ago
    > while yes the declensions and conjugations have since disappeared in English (and most of the West European languages) Which languages are you talking about?

snoonan 13y ago

A lot of the simplicity also came from contact with the Danes during the Danelaw period, effecting a sort of pidgin understandable by both Danish and English speakers in the area. We shaved off a lot of the inflections there as well. Over the last 1000 years or so, few can argue that English has more or less normalized these earlier influences into a "full-blown language" as the author states. It's extremely rich and has ways to express whatever was formally contained in its Germanic grammatical roots. What's GREAT about English from a learning perspective is that we DID hang on to a few pidgin aspects. Loss of tense and case inflections make English easier. Mastering its nuanced use is difficult, sure... but outside the US and the UK, you people don't really hold you to knowing which words collocate perfectly with others. In the next few decades, billions more functional English users will be minted on this planet. Native speakers can look forward to either cringing or embracing innovations that arise from that. It's an interesting time.

deleted 13y ago

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