12 ms·

Amish Hackers

98 points by thejteam 13y ago

artgon 13y ago
Should mention this post is from 2009.
andrewcooke 13y ago
isn't this from some book? could have sworn i had read this somewhere, but no credit is given here. edit/update: ah, ok, so this is from kevin kelly's site, and he's the author of http://www.kk.org/books/what-technology-wants.php http://www.kk.org/books/what-technology-wants.php which contains either this text or something similar. not a bad book.
- thejteam 13y ago
  There was a chapter in "What Technology Wants" about the Amish and I believe was written similarly.
  - andrewcooke 13y ago
    yeah, thanks, just remembered / updated.
brianpgordon 13y ago
Yes, it's all very quaint, except that they're denying their children opportunities in the real world by not having computers around the house. Nobody can leave the community of farmers and woodworkers because they're so dependent on it and they've never known anything else. In particular, I can't imagine how horrible it would be to be an atheist in that community.
- thejteam 13y ago
  Its not so much different than living in a city then and denying children the ability to learn to be farmers. it is easier to learn a computer for the first time as an adult than learn how to run a farm. Amish take varying attitudes towards technology like computers. The more progressive Amish now have computers but no Internet access. It is a community that takes a very slow and deliberate approach to technology. They debate how technology will affect society before adoption instead of adopting and seeing what happens.
  - light3 13y ago
    But they are not contributing to technological progress.
    - colanderman 13y ago
      Neither are most non-Amish. (Not to mention "contributing to technological progress" is a subjective value. I'm pretty sure most Amish value instead "contributing to community connectedness", and I bet some find it disconcerting that most non-Amish are not raised to further this end.)
    - rcfox 13y ago
      So? Neither is the cashier at your local grocery store.
    - lukeschlather 13y ago
      From the article, it sounds like they're contributing to technological progress in some pretty remarkable ways. Their pneumatic diesel-powered factories sound incredible. They're not necessarily any better than your standard factories, but from an engineering perspective these sound like fascinating research laboratories. Of course, these research laboratories are churning out a lot of high-quality modern furniture.
      - light3 13y ago
        Pneumatic power tools are nothing new: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_tool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_tool "Air tools were formerly unpopular in the DIY market, but are becoming increasingly popular, and have always been ubiquitous in industrial and manufacturing settings." Its sad that my statement is being down-voted without being refuted in any way.
        lukeschlather 13y ago
        A few things: > advanced the forefront of technology This is a loaded phrase which makes some unwarranted assumptions. Are Ikea desks that can be made at 1/5th the cost but last 1/10th as long representative of the forefront of technology? I'd argue when it comes to furniture manufacturing, the Amish actually are at the forefront of technology. The Amish are Apple and Ikea is Sony. > at least extremely sub-optimal. This doesn't matter. Laboring under the assumption that tools X, Y, and Z are indispensable makes your average shop much less likely to discover tool Q that does all three jobs at once for a quarter of the effort and practically for free. The best technology often looks like nothing at all because you don't even know it's there. > Pneumatic power tools are nothing new Neither are computers. Your entire arguments are based on the unstated assumption that electricity and computers are required to make anything that is on the forefront of technology - this is not true. Electricity and computers are all well and good. There's nothing wrong with specialization. If you look at things from the "good of scientific progress" perspective, it's a great thing that we have people like the Amish who arbitrarily cut off ties to certain technologies but not others. By necessity, they become the absolute experts at the technologies they keep. To us the better pneumatic drill is worthless, but it's still valid technological progress.
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  > Nobody can leave the community of farmers and woodworkers because they're so dependent on it and they've never known anything else. Is that true? Rumspringa[0] is specifically to allow exposure to the outside world. 0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa
  - zhemao 13y ago
    Yeah, I was about to reply with this. Also, the article states that the Amish are pretty well-informed about the outside world.
  - mbreese 13y ago
    There is a difference between being exposed to the outside world and being given the tools to successfully navigate it. Given their limited education, it's hard to imagine many Amish being successful in modern society.
    - wpietri 13y ago
      It may be hard to imagine, but it does happen: http://entertainment.time.com/2012/09/09/breaking-amish-one-ex-followers-true-story-of-moving-to-the-big-apple/ http://entertainment.time.com/2012/09/09/breaking-amish-one-...
      - mbreese 13y ago
        And it was so rare that Time did a story on it. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, and this guy gets lots of credit for attending/transferring to Columbia w/o a high school diploma. But that just underscores how difficult the transition can be.
    - baddox 13y ago
      No harder than to imagine an average American trying to be successful in an Amish community.
- rcfox 13y ago
  > In particular, I can't imagine how horrible it would be to be an atheist in that community. Judging from the article on Rumspringa that was posted below, an athiest wouldn't stay in the community.
- peeters 13y ago
  Out of curiousity, how do you define "real world"? The one that's lived on Facebook? Is it about relationships? I'd consider theirs more real than mine or those of an average Western citizen. They're developed through conversations and interaction, not texts. Is it about society? It seems to me that more or less every life story is about being raised by a community, spending a lifetime working in that community, and eventually dying. Is that less real when the community is a village, instead of a globe? It's hard to criticize their approach without putting unsubstantiated weight on subjective values, like global integration, or contribution to technological progress. That those are worthy virtues is not a given. But you're right, it would be difficult to be an atheist in that community because it's first and foremost a religious community. I don't see why that would be surprising. Most atheists don't find it very comfortable to be part of a church community either. They leave.
- moocowduckquack 13y ago
  You are not allowed to be Amish except by choice after experiencing the world. Their kids are not Amish until being baptised, which usually doesn't happen till after the age of 18, which is fairly rare among religions.
aaronbrethorst 13y ago
Was this posted because of the story on NPR earlier today? http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287028/amish-community-not-anti-technology-just-more-thoughful http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287...
rdtsc 13y ago
> [...] use a propane powered fork lift with metal wheels (no rubber so you can't drive it on the road) to cart around stacks of heavy metal as they manufacture very precise milled metal parts for pneumatic motors and for kerosene cooking stoves, an Amish favorite. That is impressive but that is just insanity. I visited an Amish parish in central Ohio. It wasn't just visiting the gift shop. It was a long story but we ended up sharing a meal and spending the day with them. They are great and warm people. Very good food. Women are reserved and never really talked to us much. The place was fascinating in how clean and pristine it was. Now going back to technology -- yeah they are crazy. I don't have any other way to put it. See I don't mind artificial handicaps. Like say, ok, let's see if I can program a web server in assembler for fun, or use an editor without syntax highlighting with the delete button disables, or spend the weekend without making any left turns. Those can be fun learning experience or just fun things, goofing around. But, structuring the a whole life around arbitrary restrictions (can use pneumatic tools but not electrical, can use a car but have to paint it black, can't own a car but oh, you can hire a taxi, can own a tractor but has to have metal wheels, can't use electricity for light but can use it for power tools in the shop) I see it more about abuse and control of minds than anything. This is especially interesting to see if you look at other countries. Countries where there is pervasive poverty . They would love to get their hands on new tractors, electricity, cell phones, better education and I wonder what would they think about these groups of people in a developed country going out of their way to avoid all those things.
- wpietri 13y ago
  Who do you think is doing the abusing here? The Amish I've met (where I grew up in northern Michigan) didn't seem controlled by anybody. It seemed like a lot of internal discipline, and they were very community-minded, but it didn't seem cult-y at all. Even though I'm a technologist through and through, I have a lot of respect for what they're up to. I am also very careful about what technology I let into my life; there can be subtle poorly understood effects. E.g., we've been using artificial light for generations, but it has been linked recently with depression and breast cancer. To me, their restrictions don't seem arbitrary at all. I think they are rooted in different values than mine, but I've learned to respect that. For those who want more, by the way, NPR did a nice piece today on Amish technology adoption: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287028/amish-community-not-anti-technology-just-more-thoughful http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287...
dredmorbius 13y ago
For those looking for a more recent perspective, from today's NPR broadcast: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287028/amish-community-not-anti-technology-just-more-thoughful http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287...
opminion 13y ago
To fulfill the Amish model we'd have to get better at relinquishing as a group. Social relinquishing. Not merely a large number (as in a movement) but a giving up that relies on mutual support This is interesting. We have regulations (eg smoking bans), boycotts, fashions and individual choices. How fundamentally different from all that is what the Amish do? Understanding their take on technology requires answering this question. This article raised it, but did it answer it?
- andreasvc 13y ago
  The article says that relinquishing things is decided by the elders, and the community must follow. This is very different from an individualist society, where things my be encouraged or discouraged, but ultimately the individual decides whether to follow.
baddox 13y ago
> Thirdly, Amish practices are ultimately driven by religious belief: the technological, environmental, social, and cultural consequences are secondary. They often don't have logical reasons for their policies. I don't think this is fair. Their choice to refrain from certain technologies is religious in nature, of course, but it comes through the filter of not wanting to be distracted by the rest of the world. They do not believe that there is a divine order that leads directly to the seemingly arbitrary list of can-haves and can't-haves, and as far as I know, they don't even believe that their way of life is necessary for salvation or condemn the rest of Christianity.
- BrandonMarc 13y ago
  Exactly. As Kevin even admits later in the article, their list of allowed vs. not is determined chiefly by the observed side-effects on already existing relationships, attitudes, etc, which they put high importance on.
  - baddox 13y ago
    Yes. Their communities are naturally limited in size (since they meet in their own homes and barns), so they are probably very responsive to the needs of the specific community. On top of that, everything is voluntary, and rule-breaking is handled non-violently.
- mbrock 13y ago
  Funniest thing is the assumption that anybody else has "logical" reasons for their habits. The Amish have an actual decision making procedure, the rest of us just flock to every shiny thing.
sbierwagen 13y ago
In their goal to remain off the grid, yet modernize, some Amish have installed inverters on their diesel generators linked to batteries to provide them with off-grid 110 volts. 110 volts? Interesting. Why use the American standard, if they're not grid-tied? Why not use 220 volts? Do Amish homes have to pass state electrical inspections? You can plug essentially any piece of modern electronics sold in the US into 220 volt mains and it'd work fine.
- flexd 13y ago
  Would you even be able to buy a 220 volt generator in the US? We use 220 volt, I'm not sure I can easily go out and find myself a 120 volt generator here.
- teilo 13y ago
  Because powering auto-switching electronics is not their primary use case. Toasters, power tools, lighting, etc., do not auto-switch.
  - sbierwagen 13y ago
    Ah, that makes sense.
manmal 13y ago
Makes me think of a talk I had with a German railway security expert. He told me that everything which needs to be absolutely error-proof is air-powered, even in modern-day locomotives. Some even feature mechanical compressor "CPUs" (especially in locomotors which may be at some time be deployed in coal mines and must therefore remain electricity free).
Aardwolf 13y ago
Do they have some kind of list of technology they're allowed to use and which not? E.g. they seem to be allowed to use the wheel, but would using a rotating wheel of copper wires inside of magnets be allowed if that would output electricity? What if someone completely independently discovers electricity based on the materials and technology they have? Are inventions allowed? What if they invent a new mechanical way of doing something? Or what if they invent a new combination of herbs that cures certain diseases, would that be allowed? I'm just interested :)
- peeters 13y ago
  It's not about who discovers the technology. They're completely fine using others' inventions. The main difference is that they live by the motto "just because we can, doesn't mean we should." They treat all new technology with suspicion because they are afraid of the negative impacts it will have on society. And it's not like that's completely unusual...think about how many people, even on HN, bash Facebook for the detrimental impact it has on human interaction. Lots of people have "unplugged" from Facebook. The Amish just take this attitude to the extreme, and make it a community choice, not an individual choice.

98 points by thejteam 13y ago

Should mention this post is from 2009.

isn't this from some book? could have sworn i had read this somewhere, but no credit is given here. edit/update: ah, ok, so this is from kevin kelly's site, and he's the author of http://www.kk.org/books/what-technology-wants.php http://www.kk.org/books/what-technology-wants.php which contains either this text or something similar. not a bad book.

thejteam 13y ago
There was a chapter in "What Technology Wants" about the Amish and I believe was written similarly.
- andrewcooke 13y ago
  yeah, thanks, just remembered / updated.

brianpgordon 13y ago

Yes, it's all very quaint, except that they're denying their children opportunities in the real world by not having computers around the house. Nobody can leave the community of farmers and woodworkers because they're so dependent on it and they've never known anything else. In particular, I can't imagine how horrible it would be to be an atheist in that community.

thejteam 13y ago
Its not so much different than living in a city then and denying children the ability to learn to be farmers. it is easier to learn a computer for the first time as an adult than learn how to run a farm. Amish take varying attitudes towards technology like computers. The more progressive Amish now have computers but no Internet access. It is a community that takes a very slow and deliberate approach to technology. They debate how technology will affect society before adoption instead of adopting and seeing what happens.
- light3 13y ago
  But they are not contributing to technological progress.
  - colanderman 13y ago
    Neither are most non-Amish. (Not to mention "contributing to technological progress" is a subjective value. I'm pretty sure most Amish value instead "contributing to community connectedness", and I bet some find it disconcerting that most non-Amish are not raised to further this end.)
  - rcfox 13y ago
    So? Neither is the cashier at your local grocery store.
  - lukeschlather 13y ago
    From the article, it sounds like they're contributing to technological progress in some pretty remarkable ways. Their pneumatic diesel-powered factories sound incredible. They're not necessarily any better than your standard factories, but from an engineering perspective these sound like fascinating research laboratories. Of course, these research laboratories are churning out a lot of high-quality modern furniture.
    - light3 13y ago
      Pneumatic power tools are nothing new: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_tool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_tool "Air tools were formerly unpopular in the DIY market, but are becoming increasingly popular, and have always been ubiquitous in industrial and manufacturing settings." Its sad that my statement is being down-voted without being refuted in any way.
      - lukeschlather 13y ago
        A few things: > advanced the forefront of technology This is a loaded phrase which makes some unwarranted assumptions. Are Ikea desks that can be made at 1/5th the cost but last 1/10th as long representative of the forefront of technology? I'd argue when it comes to furniture manufacturing, the Amish actually are at the forefront of technology. The Amish are Apple and Ikea is Sony. > at least extremely sub-optimal. This doesn't matter. Laboring under the assumption that tools X, Y, and Z are indispensable makes your average shop much less likely to discover tool Q that does all three jobs at once for a quarter of the effort and practically for free. The best technology often looks like nothing at all because you don't even know it's there. > Pneumatic power tools are nothing new Neither are computers. Your entire arguments are based on the unstated assumption that electricity and computers are required to make anything that is on the forefront of technology - this is not true. Electricity and computers are all well and good. There's nothing wrong with specialization. If you look at things from the "good of scientific progress" perspective, it's a great thing that we have people like the Amish who arbitrarily cut off ties to certain technologies but not others. By necessity, they become the absolute experts at the technologies they keep. To us the better pneumatic drill is worthless, but it's still valid technological progress.
w1ntermute 13y ago
> Nobody can leave the community of farmers and woodworkers because they're so dependent on it and they've never known anything else. Is that true? Rumspringa[0] is specifically to allow exposure to the outside world. 0: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa
- zhemao 13y ago
  Yeah, I was about to reply with this. Also, the article states that the Amish are pretty well-informed about the outside world.
- mbreese 13y ago
  There is a difference between being exposed to the outside world and being given the tools to successfully navigate it. Given their limited education, it's hard to imagine many Amish being successful in modern society.
  - wpietri 13y ago
    It may be hard to imagine, but it does happen: http://entertainment.time.com/2012/09/09/breaking-amish-one-ex-followers-true-story-of-moving-to-the-big-apple/ http://entertainment.time.com/2012/09/09/breaking-amish-one-...
    - mbreese 13y ago
      And it was so rare that Time did a story on it. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, and this guy gets lots of credit for attending/transferring to Columbia w/o a high school diploma. But that just underscores how difficult the transition can be.
  - baddox 13y ago
    No harder than to imagine an average American trying to be successful in an Amish community.
rcfox 13y ago
> In particular, I can't imagine how horrible it would be to be an atheist in that community. Judging from the article on Rumspringa that was posted below, an athiest wouldn't stay in the community.
peeters 13y ago
Out of curiousity, how do you define "real world"? The one that's lived on Facebook? Is it about relationships? I'd consider theirs more real than mine or those of an average Western citizen. They're developed through conversations and interaction, not texts. Is it about society? It seems to me that more or less every life story is about being raised by a community, spending a lifetime working in that community, and eventually dying. Is that less real when the community is a village, instead of a globe? It's hard to criticize their approach without putting unsubstantiated weight on subjective values, like global integration, or contribution to technological progress. That those are worthy virtues is not a given. But you're right, it would be difficult to be an atheist in that community because it's first and foremost a religious community. I don't see why that would be surprising. Most atheists don't find it very comfortable to be part of a church community either. They leave.
moocowduckquack 13y ago
You are not allowed to be Amish except by choice after experiencing the world. Their kids are not Amish until being baptised, which usually doesn't happen till after the age of 18, which is fairly rare among religions.

aaronbrethorst 13y ago

Was this posted because of the story on NPR earlier today? http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287028/amish-community-not-anti-technology-just-more-thoughful http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287...

rdtsc 13y ago

> [...] use a propane powered fork lift with metal wheels (no rubber so you can't drive it on the road) to cart around stacks of heavy metal as they manufacture very precise milled metal parts for pneumatic motors and for kerosene cooking stoves, an Amish favorite. That is impressive but that is just insanity. I visited an Amish parish in central Ohio. It wasn't just visiting the gift shop. It was a long story but we ended up sharing a meal and spending the day with them. They are great and warm people. Very good food. Women are reserved and never really talked to us much. The place was fascinating in how clean and pristine it was. Now going back to technology -- yeah they are crazy. I don't have any other way to put it. See I don't mind artificial handicaps. Like say, ok, let's see if I can program a web server in assembler for fun, or use an editor without syntax highlighting with the delete button disables, or spend the weekend without making any left turns. Those can be fun learning experience or just fun things, goofing around. But, structuring the a whole life around arbitrary restrictions (can use pneumatic tools but not electrical, can use a car but have to paint it black, can't own a car but oh, you can hire a taxi, can own a tractor but has to have metal wheels, can't use electricity for light but can use it for power tools in the shop) I see it more about abuse and control of minds than anything. This is especially interesting to see if you look at other countries. Countries where there is pervasive poverty . They would love to get their hands on new tractors, electricity, cell phones, better education and I wonder what would they think about these groups of people in a developed country going out of their way to avoid all those things.

wpietri 13y ago
Who do you think is doing the abusing here? The Amish I've met (where I grew up in northern Michigan) didn't seem controlled by anybody. It seemed like a lot of internal discipline, and they were very community-minded, but it didn't seem cult-y at all. Even though I'm a technologist through and through, I have a lot of respect for what they're up to. I am also very careful about what technology I let into my life; there can be subtle poorly understood effects. E.g., we've been using artificial light for generations, but it has been linked recently with depression and breast cancer. To me, their restrictions don't seem arbitrary at all. I think they are rooted in different values than mine, but I've learned to respect that. For those who want more, by the way, NPR did a nice piece today on Amish technology adoption: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287028/amish-community-not-anti-technology-just-more-thoughful http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287...

dredmorbius 13y ago

For those looking for a more recent perspective, from today's NPR broadcast: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287028/amish-community-not-anti-technology-just-more-thoughful http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/09/02/217287...

opminion 13y ago

To fulfill the Amish model we'd have to get better at relinquishing as a group. Social relinquishing. Not merely a large number (as in a movement) but a giving up that relies on mutual support This is interesting. We have regulations (eg smoking bans), boycotts, fashions and individual choices. How fundamentally different from all that is what the Amish do? Understanding their take on technology requires answering this question. This article raised it, but did it answer it?

andreasvc 13y ago
The article says that relinquishing things is decided by the elders, and the community must follow. This is very different from an individualist society, where things my be encouraged or discouraged, but ultimately the individual decides whether to follow.

baddox 13y ago

> Thirdly, Amish practices are ultimately driven by religious belief: the technological, environmental, social, and cultural consequences are secondary. They often don't have logical reasons for their policies. I don't think this is fair. Their choice to refrain from certain technologies is religious in nature, of course, but it comes through the filter of not wanting to be distracted by the rest of the world. They do not believe that there is a divine order that leads directly to the seemingly arbitrary list of can-haves and can't-haves, and as far as I know, they don't even believe that their way of life is necessary for salvation or condemn the rest of Christianity.

BrandonMarc 13y ago
Exactly. As Kevin even admits later in the article, their list of allowed vs. not is determined chiefly by the observed side-effects on already existing relationships, attitudes, etc, which they put high importance on.
- baddox 13y ago
  Yes. Their communities are naturally limited in size (since they meet in their own homes and barns), so they are probably very responsive to the needs of the specific community. On top of that, everything is voluntary, and rule-breaking is handled non-violently.
mbrock 13y ago
Funniest thing is the assumption that anybody else has "logical" reasons for their habits. The Amish have an actual decision making procedure, the rest of us just flock to every shiny thing.

sbierwagen 13y ago

In their goal to remain off the grid, yet modernize, some Amish have installed inverters on their diesel generators linked to batteries to provide them with off-grid 110 volts. 110 volts? Interesting. Why use the American standard, if they're not grid-tied? Why not use 220 volts? Do Amish homes have to pass state electrical inspections? You can plug essentially any piece of modern electronics sold in the US into 220 volt mains and it'd work fine.

flexd 13y ago
Would you even be able to buy a 220 volt generator in the US? We use 220 volt, I'm not sure I can easily go out and find myself a 120 volt generator here.
teilo 13y ago
Because powering auto-switching electronics is not their primary use case. Toasters, power tools, lighting, etc., do not auto-switch.
- sbierwagen 13y ago
  Ah, that makes sense.

manmal 13y ago

Makes me think of a talk I had with a German railway security expert. He told me that everything which needs to be absolutely error-proof is air-powered, even in modern-day locomotives. Some even feature mechanical compressor "CPUs" (especially in locomotors which may be at some time be deployed in coal mines and must therefore remain electricity free).

Aardwolf 13y ago

Do they have some kind of list of technology they're allowed to use and which not? E.g. they seem to be allowed to use the wheel, but would using a rotating wheel of copper wires inside of magnets be allowed if that would output electricity? What if someone completely independently discovers electricity based on the materials and technology they have? Are inventions allowed? What if they invent a new mechanical way of doing something? Or what if they invent a new combination of herbs that cures certain diseases, would that be allowed? I'm just interested :)

peeters 13y ago
It's not about who discovers the technology. They're completely fine using others' inventions. The main difference is that they live by the motto "just because we can, doesn't mean we should." They treat all new technology with suspicion because they are afraid of the negative impacts it will have on society. And it's not like that's completely unusual...think about how many people, even on HN, bash Facebook for the detrimental impact it has on human interaction. Lots of people have "unplugged" from Facebook. The Amish just take this attitude to the extreme, and make it a community choice, not an individual choice.