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the lack of sacrifice necessary to make fat stacks of cash writing software? I don't know about you, but I've sacrificed an incalculable amount of positive soc

the lack of sacrifice necessary to make fat stacks of cash writing software? I don't know about you, but I've sacrificed an incalculable amount of positive social interaction sitting in front of these damned screens. My programming skills weren't spontaneously conferred upon me, as a kid I'd spend weeks at time building foolishly impossible-to-complete applications that I'd eventually leave to rot as I hopped onto the next cool programming technique that I finally understood the power of. There's a considerable amount of my time not spent interacting with people I enjoy, even today, because I am so compelled to build programs. Time spent in the pursuit of understanding these gadgets is the sacrifice made and the barrier to entry. Though, I do believe automation will catch up with developers eventually; there will inevitably come a point where general purpose programming experiences low demand as the explosion of software begins to cover the majority of conceivable business use cases.

avenger123 13y ago
I definitely agree with your sentiments. What is also missing from this article is that from a demographics perspective, it is much easier to work in an auto-factory than to do software development. As a result, the pool of people that can work in a factory is much, much greater than the pool that can work as software developers. This opinion of my mine does not have anything to do with how hard the work of a software developer is but more to do with simple human traits. At a bare minimum to work effectively as a software developer you need to be a good learner, ability to try new things, be able to step out of your boundaries and push yourself, discipline to sit in front of a computer for long stretches of time, and comfortable with change. These traits are in some ways the opposite of an ideal factory worker.
return0 13y ago
> but I've sacrificed an incalculable amount of positive social interaction sitting in front of these damned screens Sorry to call you out on that, but that is a tiny sacrifice to make compared to the past (which involved sweat, blood, immigration, exploitation to name a few). Even calling it a sacrifice is kind of sacrilege. Plus, you most probably did a lot of social interaction on your IM.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- angersock 13y ago
  There's a big (hehe) elephant in the room here: At least ditch-digging and carpentry and whatnot resulted in having some exercise in your body. Sitting in front of a screen (or standing, or whatever) doesn't do much to increase health, improve posture, or maintain eyesight. I may be projecting a bit here, but most programming jobs (excluding the magical land of milk and honey and catered lunches and in-house gyms that apparently is the norm in SV and NY right now) don't result in you being any healthier or more social. We are in a profession which is self-selecting for making us physically unattractive and economically replaceable (if we do our jobs correctly, it shouldn't be hard to replace us on a team).
  - lgieron 13y ago
    A few dozens of years of physical labor can wreck your body harder than being sedentary - think about the accumulated damage to the back, joints etc. from the unnatural, repetetive and prolonged strain. Also, in many (most?) climates working outside takes it toll as well.
    - angersock 13y ago
      Oh, I don't mean to completely fetishize that lifestyle--many steelworkers, for example basically just kind of wear out after a couple of decades of hard work. That said, there are still clearly disadvantages to being coders.
ritchiea 13y ago
You're making the wrong comparison. The comparison shouldn't be "sitting in front of a screen" vs socializing. It should be "sitting in front of a screen" vs the amount of work it takes to achieve a similar career in another field vs the amount of work it has historically required to achieve a similar career.
- vectorpush 13y ago
  The comparison is apt with regard to unemployed individuals seeking to break into the software industry. My point is that a non-trivial amount of sacrifice is required to hone these skills; no, it's not back breaking labor, but most people aren't inclined to spend 6-10 hours a day sitting at a PC working through fake problems in an effort to understand how one authors software. That's the world we live in now. This doesn't mean those inclined to do so are smarter, excluding the outliers, they simply fall into a category of individual that is comfortable banging their head against a compiler for hours. These people read code, they ask questions, they scour google, they devour books, blogs, mailing lists and error logs and in time a solid understanding inevitably ensues. Most people aren't inclined or cannot afford to work on something for extended periods of time without the explicit promise of compensation. There are a lot of dreamers who aspire to the rockstar lifestyle but for most of them guitar hero is about as far as it goes.
  - dclowd9901 13y ago
    You are exactly right. My boss is one of these self-loathing software developers that constantly sees it fit to remind me that we're all privileged sissies who get to play on computers and get paid obscenely well for it. I don't buy that. He may feel that way, but I didn't start off in software development. I worked my way into it before there was ever a coursera or any other "become a developer quick" program. I did this by working a full time job to pay bills, then coming home and spending another 8 hours a day (and entire weekends) learning and honing. It would take 2 years of these 100-hour weeks to get to a point where I could actually begin doing this work at a professional level. So I don't buy it. I hit a lot of walls and wanted to give up many times. And I've always loved computers! It still takes a special person to do the work we do. It wasn't like that for auto manufacturing.

avenger123 13y ago

I definitely agree with your sentiments. What is also missing from this article is that from a demographics perspective, it is much easier to work in an auto-factory than to do software development. As a result, the pool of people that can work in a factory is much, much greater than the pool that can work as software developers. This opinion of my mine does not have anything to do with how hard the work of a software developer is but more to do with simple human traits. At a bare minimum to work effectively as a software developer you need to be a good learner, ability to try new things, be able to step out of your boundaries and push yourself, discipline to sit in front of a computer for long stretches of time, and comfortable with change. These traits are in some ways the opposite of an ideal factory worker.

return0 13y ago

> but I've sacrificed an incalculable amount of positive social interaction sitting in front of these damned screens Sorry to call you out on that, but that is a tiny sacrifice to make compared to the past (which involved sweat, blood, immigration, exploitation to name a few). Even calling it a sacrifice is kind of sacrilege. Plus, you most probably did a lot of social interaction on your IM.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
angersock 13y ago
There's a big (hehe) elephant in the room here: At least ditch-digging and carpentry and whatnot resulted in having some exercise in your body. Sitting in front of a screen (or standing, or whatever) doesn't do much to increase health, improve posture, or maintain eyesight. I may be projecting a bit here, but most programming jobs (excluding the magical land of milk and honey and catered lunches and in-house gyms that apparently is the norm in SV and NY right now) don't result in you being any healthier or more social. We are in a profession which is self-selecting for making us physically unattractive and economically replaceable (if we do our jobs correctly, it shouldn't be hard to replace us on a team).
- lgieron 13y ago
  A few dozens of years of physical labor can wreck your body harder than being sedentary - think about the accumulated damage to the back, joints etc. from the unnatural, repetetive and prolonged strain. Also, in many (most?) climates working outside takes it toll as well.
  - angersock 13y ago
    Oh, I don't mean to completely fetishize that lifestyle--many steelworkers, for example basically just kind of wear out after a couple of decades of hard work. That said, there are still clearly disadvantages to being coders.

ritchiea 13y ago

You're making the wrong comparison. The comparison shouldn't be "sitting in front of a screen" vs socializing. It should be "sitting in front of a screen" vs the amount of work it takes to achieve a similar career in another field vs the amount of work it has historically required to achieve a similar career.

vectorpush 13y ago
The comparison is apt with regard to unemployed individuals seeking to break into the software industry. My point is that a non-trivial amount of sacrifice is required to hone these skills; no, it's not back breaking labor, but most people aren't inclined to spend 6-10 hours a day sitting at a PC working through fake problems in an effort to understand how one authors software. That's the world we live in now. This doesn't mean those inclined to do so are smarter, excluding the outliers, they simply fall into a category of individual that is comfortable banging their head against a compiler for hours. These people read code, they ask questions, they scour google, they devour books, blogs, mailing lists and error logs and in time a solid understanding inevitably ensues. Most people aren't inclined or cannot afford to work on something for extended periods of time without the explicit promise of compensation. There are a lot of dreamers who aspire to the rockstar lifestyle but for most of them guitar hero is about as far as it goes.
- dclowd9901 13y ago
  You are exactly right. My boss is one of these self-loathing software developers that constantly sees it fit to remind me that we're all privileged sissies who get to play on computers and get paid obscenely well for it. I don't buy that. He may feel that way, but I didn't start off in software development. I worked my way into it before there was ever a coursera or any other "become a developer quick" program. I did this by working a full time job to pay bills, then coming home and spending another 8 hours a day (and entire weekends) learning and honing. It would take 2 years of these 100-hour weeks to get to a point where I could actually begin doing this work at a professional level. So I don't buy it. I hit a lot of walls and wanted to give up many times. And I've always loved computers! It still takes a special person to do the work we do. It wasn't like that for auto manufacturing.