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Tell me more about how the non-aggression principle absolves you of any social responsibility. You didn't earn your money in a vacuum outside of society, you ea

Tell me more about how the non-aggression principle absolves you of any social responsibility. You didn't earn your money in a vacuum outside of society, you earned it with the implicit knowledge that you will be taxed while reaping the real benefits those tax dollars and the rest of society provided you. It's an unfortunate opinion to hold, as anyone who opposes is violent and abusive thug in your worldview. It's incredibly childish mental gymnastics that people who feel that they owe nothing to society adopt to justify their greed while they take, take, take the fruits of our society.

snitko 13y ago
What do I owe to society and why? Can you be more specific? And why do I owe it to society as a whole and not some particular individuals?
- consonants 13y ago
  Imma gonna make a software analogy. Society is like a framework you build upon, without the scaffolding there to hold you up and none of what you accomplished would be possible. None. In turn, it is our responsibility to manage the upkeep of society. I grew up on open source software. I started using Debian when I was still in grade school. Without it, many of us wouldn't be doing what we are now. In advocating that volunteering charity as a solution to society's ills, you need to consider the cases that charity simply can't or won't make a meaningful impact on. You also have to factor in the marketability, trends, and prejudice that will invariably select equally worthy social causes over another. We've seen how without a proper safety net, the public at large will let the sick and poor rot, then charities and business went on just as usual and profits and donations were better than ever. Yet we still denied the mentally ill the healthcare they needed to take care of themselves. We vilified and locked up the poor and minorities. Business as usual hasn't addressed what didn't directly benefit business (why would it?). Think of the cases that open source software tackled as a community that lead a richer software environment. We were no longer at the whim of the walled-garden software giants. We saw how without proper disruption in business as usual we were screwed. Remember, we are lucky and privileged to be in a position where we can almost assuredly find (self)employment on our own terms and be guaranteed high salaries. That can change, and you can bet that employers will jump at any opportunity to bring costs down so in the long run our position will be whittled to maximize profit. The next generation of programmers will experience lower entry level pay + benefits and that trend will follow them throughout their life. They will never see the level of privilege we experience now. This is the trend almost every middle class profession has seen in the last 30 years. We can effectively be exiled from the walled-garden, and every paycheck you employer hands you is another reason to find a way to replace you. The vast majority people are experiencing this. We created an environment where there is no alternative to the pittance the wealth giants feel like granting us. It gave us a shitty software environment and locked down hardware, and it never addressed the scope of the problems government, welfare and public works solves. >And why do I owe it to society as a whole and not some particular individuals? When you pay for your meal at a restaurant, are you only paying the specific people who prepared and handled your food? Again, specific individuals didn't accomplish anything in a vacuum. You are a by product of society as a whole just as your meal was the product of the restaurant as a whole.
  - snitko 13y ago
    Well, let me say that your opensource software analogy is great and here's why. I use Rails and make money building apps with it. Am I expecting @dhh or other Rails devs to knock on my door and demand their fair share? Of course not. If they did so, they'd be ridiculed and judged by the rest of the community! Open source is a voluntary cooperation: nobody expects anybody else to pay and hardly anyone started an open-source project because they expected donations. People donate because they want to. Or opensource devs make money by providing a service or building an actual product on their platform. And there are many opensource projects. I don't use all of them, even if indirectly. Should I still consider donating to projects I don't really use? Of course not. My point is this: no one in the opensource world uses force to keep it running. If I don't donate to an opensource project, IRS is not going to come take my possessions. Governments on the other hand do use force to keep the state running. How can you fail to see this? And if you do see this, how can you defend the use of force?
    - Raphmedia 13y ago
      People aren't programs. They aren't tools. They aren't frameworks either. People are people. If you don't force them to help their peers, they won't. Hell, I come from that poor background and I still whine whenever I see all the money the government takes out of my paycheck. Imagine someone who never had any contact with the poor. You have two choice: -Upset (a little bit) people and force them to help out their peers. This cost them almost nothing. But they will whine. -Do nothing, turn a blind eye and let poor people suffer. Sure, you can try to encourage people to give. But it won't work. It will never work. We are hardwired to help ourselves, then our families, our friends and THEN if you have extra... and I mean a lot of extra, you may think about giving some money to strangers. But no. You will buy the new iSomething. Don't feel guilty. That's how we are. That's how the modern world roll. If nobody forces you to help out your peer, you will never do. I will never do either. Sure, we may act as if we are helping people. But we don't. We buy the indie bundle for $2 more than the average. We give that penny to the hobo so he can "buy a pizza". But it ends there. Each paycheck, I lose about X in taxes and stuff. It used to piss me off. "All that hard work for nothing!". Then, one of my best friend came one day and told me "Raph, it's awesome. The government is giving me X every two weeks now. I can make it and finish school now!". Damn. Sinking feeling. That's pretty much the money I give away. I don't whine anymore when I see my paycheck. Sure, I would LOVE to be able to choose where the money I get taken goes to. But I just have to trust the government on that one.

snitko 13y ago

What do I owe to society and why? Can you be more specific? And why do I owe it to society as a whole and not some particular individuals?

consonants 13y ago
Imma gonna make a software analogy. Society is like a framework you build upon, without the scaffolding there to hold you up and none of what you accomplished would be possible. None. In turn, it is our responsibility to manage the upkeep of society. I grew up on open source software. I started using Debian when I was still in grade school. Without it, many of us wouldn't be doing what we are now. In advocating that volunteering charity as a solution to society's ills, you need to consider the cases that charity simply can't or won't make a meaningful impact on. You also have to factor in the marketability, trends, and prejudice that will invariably select equally worthy social causes over another. We've seen how without a proper safety net, the public at large will let the sick and poor rot, then charities and business went on just as usual and profits and donations were better than ever. Yet we still denied the mentally ill the healthcare they needed to take care of themselves. We vilified and locked up the poor and minorities. Business as usual hasn't addressed what didn't directly benefit business (why would it?). Think of the cases that open source software tackled as a community that lead a richer software environment. We were no longer at the whim of the walled-garden software giants. We saw how without proper disruption in business as usual we were screwed. Remember, we are lucky and privileged to be in a position where we can almost assuredly find (self)employment on our own terms and be guaranteed high salaries. That can change, and you can bet that employers will jump at any opportunity to bring costs down so in the long run our position will be whittled to maximize profit. The next generation of programmers will experience lower entry level pay + benefits and that trend will follow them throughout their life. They will never see the level of privilege we experience now. This is the trend almost every middle class profession has seen in the last 30 years. We can effectively be exiled from the walled-garden, and every paycheck you employer hands you is another reason to find a way to replace you. The vast majority people are experiencing this. We created an environment where there is no alternative to the pittance the wealth giants feel like granting us. It gave us a shitty software environment and locked down hardware, and it never addressed the scope of the problems government, welfare and public works solves. >And why do I owe it to society as a whole and not some particular individuals? When you pay for your meal at a restaurant, are you only paying the specific people who prepared and handled your food? Again, specific individuals didn't accomplish anything in a vacuum. You are a by product of society as a whole just as your meal was the product of the restaurant as a whole.
- snitko 13y ago
  Well, let me say that your opensource software analogy is great and here's why. I use Rails and make money building apps with it. Am I expecting @dhh or other Rails devs to knock on my door and demand their fair share? Of course not. If they did so, they'd be ridiculed and judged by the rest of the community! Open source is a voluntary cooperation: nobody expects anybody else to pay and hardly anyone started an open-source project because they expected donations. People donate because they want to. Or opensource devs make money by providing a service or building an actual product on their platform. And there are many opensource projects. I don't use all of them, even if indirectly. Should I still consider donating to projects I don't really use? Of course not. My point is this: no one in the opensource world uses force to keep it running. If I don't donate to an opensource project, IRS is not going to come take my possessions. Governments on the other hand do use force to keep the state running. How can you fail to see this? And if you do see this, how can you defend the use of force?
  - Raphmedia 13y ago
    People aren't programs. They aren't tools. They aren't frameworks either. People are people. If you don't force them to help their peers, they won't. Hell, I come from that poor background and I still whine whenever I see all the money the government takes out of my paycheck. Imagine someone who never had any contact with the poor. You have two choice: -Upset (a little bit) people and force them to help out their peers. This cost them almost nothing. But they will whine. -Do nothing, turn a blind eye and let poor people suffer. Sure, you can try to encourage people to give. But it won't work. It will never work. We are hardwired to help ourselves, then our families, our friends and THEN if you have extra... and I mean a lot of extra, you may think about giving some money to strangers. But no. You will buy the new iSomething. Don't feel guilty. That's how we are. That's how the modern world roll. If nobody forces you to help out your peer, you will never do. I will never do either. Sure, we may act as if we are helping people. But we don't. We buy the indie bundle for $2 more than the average. We give that penny to the hobo so he can "buy a pizza". But it ends there. Each paycheck, I lose about X in taxes and stuff. It used to piss me off. "All that hard work for nothing!". Then, one of my best friend came one day and told me "Raph, it's awesome. The government is giving me X every two weeks now. I can make it and finish school now!". Damn. Sinking feeling. That's pretty much the money I give away. I don't whine anymore when I see my paycheck. Sure, I would LOVE to be able to choose where the money I get taken goes to. But I just have to trust the government on that one.