4 ms·

What? It'd be sad if the US DIDN'T spy on other, friendly nations? And, am I not a grown up for seriously being angry about all this then?

by cyphax 13y ago

timdiggerm 13y ago
Yes. That is their job. Because nations don't trust each other. Because, historically, they shouldn't. It would be naive to do otherwise.
shin_lao 13y ago
Being angry is a normal reaction, but that doesn't mean spying on "friends" isn't the thing to do. It's not black and white. You don't just have "friends" on one side and "enemies" on the others. It can also be understood as "Trust but verify" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As6y5eI01XE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As6y5eI01XE
- Xylakant 13y ago
  So you'd be fine if your partner breaks into your email account on the basis of "trust but verify"? [1] I'm not. The NSA/GCHQ are breaking into secured computer systems of other countries and the UN despite having signed treaties that forbid this practice. They use the information gained to undermine the negotiation position of their partners. Now, that this information gets published, it's "what everybody does", but back when american systems were hacked, it was "evil chinese hackers". I'm not willing to accept that "what everybody does" is always a good practice. The USA is currently loosing a lot of goodwill and trust with other countries due to the NSAs actions. Those actions might have provided a short-term benefit in some negotiation, but now that they're exposed do a tremendous damage. I might be a bit of a dreamer, but I always hoped that governments should be in for the long-term benefit and fostering reciprocal trust between allies is certainly better than spying on them. [1] trust but verify can be baked into treaties, as was done in the START treaties for example.
  - shin_lao 13y ago
    If you wrongly entrust your partner, you might be cheated. If you wrongly entrust another country, millions of persons might die. Different consequences, different rules.
    - Xylakant 13y ago
      If you wrongly spy on your partner, you might loose him. If you wrongly spy on an ally, millions of persons might die. Different consequences, different rules. Your argument is a straw man. I never called for blind trust into all actions, but for trust in the countries you call your allies. Brasil is unlikely to start the next major war, as is Germany, France or the UN. Spying on those is all about leverage and financial benefits. Is that worth the loss of trust you're risking?
bane 13y ago
Who said Mexico and Brazil are friends of the US? Mexico and Brazil both represent significant economic threats to the U.S. And Brazil's fast growing economy and military power, with a population 2/3s that of the U.S. and unbelievably vast untapped natural resources will likely continue to skew the center of power in the Americas south. Brazil is now a larger economic power than the UK and a hair behind France if that puts things into perspective. Brazil has the largest and most powerful military force in Latin America that includes limited deep water force projection capabilities. Mexico is a larger economy than South Korea. It's a "partner" in the war on drugs and is the major conduit for illicit drugs entering the US. It's military is supplied by countries that aren't necessarily "friends" of the US, it has a reputation for rampant corruption and out of control criminal enterprises. And oh yeah it shares one of the longer land borders with the U.S. and unbelievable number of Mexican citizens skirt border checkpoints in one of the largest human migrations in history that will inevitably result in massive cultural, economic and political changes in the U.S. I'm not upset about these things, it's just the nature of changing times. But thinking that the U.S. and Brazil and Mexico and special BFFs and wouldn't ever, under any circumstances even do super secret double probation spying of any sort on each other has no other word than naive to describe it. > And, am I not a grown up for seriously being angry about all this then? Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. Welcome to the very scary, duplicitous, wretched grown up world where friendship is only out of beneficial convenience and allies work to subvert each other while still trying to achieve mutual goals. When you start getting sad about this, instead of angry, then you've grown up.
- dictum 13y ago
  > Who said Mexico and Brazil are friends of the US? Mexico and Brazil both represent significant economic threats to the U.S. I'm sure the US won't get any goodwill from other nations as long as it keeps seeing any other economic power not in decline as an enemy. Why the condescension for people who don't accept realpolitik as a fact of life?
  - bane 13y ago
    I think lots of the anger here is not about realpolitik vs ideology as much as pure willful ignorance, wishful thinking and possibly outright delusion. There's lots of tut-tutting here about the NSA doing what the NSA is supposed to do under the guise of mock upsetness or outright ignorance. But here, when Germany is demonstrated to be part of it? Barely a righteous tone rises in anger. China outright infiltrates a nuclear weapons lab? Well shame on the US for not vetting their people better. [1] Lets not ever chastise China. Russia has spies embedded in the US banking industry for a decade? Oh that silly Putin! Here's a picture of him wrestling a bear! But the NSA breaking codes and tapping phones? Oh my goodness fuck! What will save us from the Stalinist purges! What precisely do we think the DGSE, MI5, MI6, BND, MAD, CNI, SVR, NSB etc. [3] all do? Rescue local cats from trees? Play with computers and microphones to see "what's cool?" There's lots of smart folks here, but it's like we're all drunk at our keyboards every time the NSA is shown to be doing what the NSA is supposed to be doing. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_intelligence_activity_abroad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_intelligence_activity_... 2 - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jul/22/germany-china-industrial-espionage http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jul/22/germany-china-i... 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies

What? It'd be sad if the US DIDN'T spy on other, friendly nations? And, am I not a grown up for seriously being angry about all this then?

by cyphax 13y ago

What? It'd be sad if the US DIDN'T spy on other, friendly nations? And, am I not a grown up for seriously being angry about all this then?

timdiggerm 13y ago

Yes. That is their job. Because nations don't trust each other. Because, historically, they shouldn't. It would be naive to do otherwise.

shin_lao 13y ago

Being angry is a normal reaction, but that doesn't mean spying on "friends" isn't the thing to do. It's not black and white. You don't just have "friends" on one side and "enemies" on the others. It can also be understood as "Trust but verify" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As6y5eI01XE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As6y5eI01XE

Xylakant 13y ago
So you'd be fine if your partner breaks into your email account on the basis of "trust but verify"? [1] I'm not. The NSA/GCHQ are breaking into secured computer systems of other countries and the UN despite having signed treaties that forbid this practice. They use the information gained to undermine the negotiation position of their partners. Now, that this information gets published, it's "what everybody does", but back when american systems were hacked, it was "evil chinese hackers". I'm not willing to accept that "what everybody does" is always a good practice. The USA is currently loosing a lot of goodwill and trust with other countries due to the NSAs actions. Those actions might have provided a short-term benefit in some negotiation, but now that they're exposed do a tremendous damage. I might be a bit of a dreamer, but I always hoped that governments should be in for the long-term benefit and fostering reciprocal trust between allies is certainly better than spying on them. [1] trust but verify can be baked into treaties, as was done in the START treaties for example.
- shin_lao 13y ago
  If you wrongly entrust your partner, you might be cheated. If you wrongly entrust another country, millions of persons might die. Different consequences, different rules.
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    If you wrongly spy on your partner, you might loose him. If you wrongly spy on an ally, millions of persons might die. Different consequences, different rules. Your argument is a straw man. I never called for blind trust into all actions, but for trust in the countries you call your allies. Brasil is unlikely to start the next major war, as is Germany, France or the UN. Spying on those is all about leverage and financial benefits. Is that worth the loss of trust you're risking?

bane 13y ago

Who said Mexico and Brazil are friends of the US? Mexico and Brazil both represent significant economic threats to the U.S. And Brazil's fast growing economy and military power, with a population 2/3s that of the U.S. and unbelievably vast untapped natural resources will likely continue to skew the center of power in the Americas south. Brazil is now a larger economic power than the UK and a hair behind France if that puts things into perspective. Brazil has the largest and most powerful military force in Latin America that includes limited deep water force projection capabilities. Mexico is a larger economy than South Korea. It's a "partner" in the war on drugs and is the major conduit for illicit drugs entering the US. It's military is supplied by countries that aren't necessarily "friends" of the US, it has a reputation for rampant corruption and out of control criminal enterprises. And oh yeah it shares one of the longer land borders with the U.S. and unbelievable number of Mexican citizens skirt border checkpoints in one of the largest human migrations in history that will inevitably result in massive cultural, economic and political changes in the U.S. I'm not upset about these things, it's just the nature of changing times. But thinking that the U.S. and Brazil and Mexico and special BFFs and wouldn't ever, under any circumstances even do super secret double probation spying of any sort on each other has no other word than naive to describe it. > And, am I not a grown up for seriously being angry about all this then? Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm saying. Welcome to the very scary, duplicitous, wretched grown up world where friendship is only out of beneficial convenience and allies work to subvert each other while still trying to achieve mutual goals. When you start getting sad about this, instead of angry, then you've grown up.

dictum 13y ago
> Who said Mexico and Brazil are friends of the US? Mexico and Brazil both represent significant economic threats to the U.S. I'm sure the US won't get any goodwill from other nations as long as it keeps seeing any other economic power not in decline as an enemy. Why the condescension for people who don't accept realpolitik as a fact of life?
- bane 13y ago
  I think lots of the anger here is not about realpolitik vs ideology as much as pure willful ignorance, wishful thinking and possibly outright delusion. There's lots of tut-tutting here about the NSA doing what the NSA is supposed to do under the guise of mock upsetness or outright ignorance. But here, when Germany is demonstrated to be part of it? Barely a righteous tone rises in anger. China outright infiltrates a nuclear weapons lab? Well shame on the US for not vetting their people better. [1] Lets not ever chastise China. Russia has spies embedded in the US banking industry for a decade? Oh that silly Putin! Here's a picture of him wrestling a bear! But the NSA breaking codes and tapping phones? Oh my goodness fuck! What will save us from the Stalinist purges! What precisely do we think the DGSE, MI5, MI6, BND, MAD, CNI, SVR, NSB etc. [3] all do? Rescue local cats from trees? Play with computers and microphones to see "what's cool?" There's lots of smart folks here, but it's like we're all drunk at our keyboards every time the NSA is shown to be doing what the NSA is supposed to be doing. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_intelligence_activity_abroad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_intelligence_activity_... 2 - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jul/22/germany-china-industrial-espionage http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jul/22/germany-china-i... 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies