5 ms·

The problem is not being willing to learn an essential skill.

DanBC 13y ago
So a 12 year old in Brazil not only has to learn how to install an OS, and then how to install Python, and then how to program with Python, but also has to do all of that in a different language? Pretty easy to call it an essential skill when English is your first language. How about you try to pick up some new programming language using only Japanese documentation?
- nbouscal 13y ago
  The parent comment wasn't prescriptive, it was descriptive. You can argue all you'd like that it isn't fair or optimal or good, but you're hard pressed to argue that it isn't true.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    > but you're hard pressed to argue that it isn't true. But it's only true (if it is true, and I haven't seen anything to show that it is) because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. There's nothing about it that needs it to be true. "The world needs a common language; you lazy thickos need to speak English (which, coincidentally, is what I speak) otherwise you only have yourselves to blame" is the language of fascists and belongs to the era of Eugenics and other hateful wrong-headed ideologies.
    - nbouscal 13y ago
      Like I just said, the comment was descriptive, not prescriptive. Neither that commenter nor I are arguing that this is how it should be. We're simply observing that it's how it is, and if you want to be successful it's almost always better to base your decisions on how the world is than on how you think it should be. As for anything to show that it is true… have you looked around you? English has very obviously become the lingua franca of commerce, science, and technology. This is not a controversial statement.
    - dspeyer 13y ago
      Are you saying the world doesn't need a common language? Or that there's a better choice than English? Yes it sucks a lot for some people, and no it isn't fair, but that doesn't change it. What would you have us do?
      - DanBC 13y ago
        > Are you saying the world doesn't need a common language? It is very easy to say that common languages are good when you already speak that common language. Common languages are great when you've reached the point of doing the job, but they cause extra burden on large parts of the world population and are a barrier to entry for poor people. One response is to say "Let's teach a simple international English to as many people as possible". Another response is to say "Let's create excellent quality documentation, and then translate this into the majority languages." These need not be exclusive, we can do both. My misplaced anger you see in this thread comes from my perception of the tone of the 'learn English' side.
- cliveowen 13y ago
  If I had to I would. In fact, just like the author, I was born and raised in Italy. I'm not a native English speaker but since the circumstances required it I learned the English language, simple as that. Now I get to read college textbooks in English instead of relying on the botched translations, I watch movies in their original language instead of watching the translated version and missing half the jokes.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    I think we're talking at cross purposes. I think it would be really useful for some core information[1] to be made available in best quality form, and in many different languages. This would be things like "How does science work?" and other simple introductory science texts. This would be things like man pages. This would help people learn the basic concepts while they're also learning other languages. Having short form, excellent quality, science and math educational material available in many languages could do a lot to make the world a better place. Having read some of your other comments I see that you're aiming the "learn English, it's really useful" to people working at a much higher level than that. I gently agree with most of that - there are many areas where learning English is very useful.
- walshemj 13y ago
  But in away this is always been with us. Before ww2 in some technical fields you more or less had to learn German as that where a lot of the research was done - in chemistry it was effectively mandatory. Before that a natural philosophers had to learn/know Latin.
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  > How about you try to pick up some new programming language using only 日本語 documentation? Funny story: Ruby took a while to catch on outside of Japan because its docs were all in 日本語. The Pickaxe was created by basically ignoring all the docs, reading the C, and playing around in the REPL. Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_l...

DanBC 13y ago

So a 12 year old in Brazil not only has to learn how to install an OS, and then how to install Python, and then how to program with Python, but also has to do all of that in a different language? Pretty easy to call it an essential skill when English is your first language. How about you try to pick up some new programming language using only Japanese documentation?

nbouscal 13y ago
The parent comment wasn't prescriptive, it was descriptive. You can argue all you'd like that it isn't fair or optimal or good, but you're hard pressed to argue that it isn't true.
- DanBC 13y ago
  > but you're hard pressed to argue that it isn't true. But it's only true (if it is true, and I haven't seen anything to show that it is) because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. There's nothing about it that needs it to be true. "The world needs a common language; you lazy thickos need to speak English (which, coincidentally, is what I speak) otherwise you only have yourselves to blame" is the language of fascists and belongs to the era of Eugenics and other hateful wrong-headed ideologies.
  - nbouscal 13y ago
    Like I just said, the comment was descriptive, not prescriptive. Neither that commenter nor I are arguing that this is how it should be. We're simply observing that it's how it is, and if you want to be successful it's almost always better to base your decisions on how the world is than on how you think it should be. As for anything to show that it is true… have you looked around you? English has very obviously become the lingua franca of commerce, science, and technology. This is not a controversial statement.
  - dspeyer 13y ago
    Are you saying the world doesn't need a common language? Or that there's a better choice than English? Yes it sucks a lot for some people, and no it isn't fair, but that doesn't change it. What would you have us do?
    - DanBC 13y ago
      > Are you saying the world doesn't need a common language? It is very easy to say that common languages are good when you already speak that common language. Common languages are great when you've reached the point of doing the job, but they cause extra burden on large parts of the world population and are a barrier to entry for poor people. One response is to say "Let's teach a simple international English to as many people as possible". Another response is to say "Let's create excellent quality documentation, and then translate this into the majority languages." These need not be exclusive, we can do both. My misplaced anger you see in this thread comes from my perception of the tone of the 'learn English' side.
cliveowen 13y ago
If I had to I would. In fact, just like the author, I was born and raised in Italy. I'm not a native English speaker but since the circumstances required it I learned the English language, simple as that. Now I get to read college textbooks in English instead of relying on the botched translations, I watch movies in their original language instead of watching the translated version and missing half the jokes.
- DanBC 13y ago
  I think we're talking at cross purposes. I think it would be really useful for some core information[1] to be made available in best quality form, and in many different languages. This would be things like "How does science work?" and other simple introductory science texts. This would be things like man pages. This would help people learn the basic concepts while they're also learning other languages. Having short form, excellent quality, science and math educational material available in many languages could do a lot to make the world a better place. Having read some of your other comments I see that you're aiming the "learn English, it's really useful" to people working at a much higher level than that. I gently agree with most of that - there are many areas where learning English is very useful.
walshemj 13y ago
But in away this is always been with us. Before ww2 in some technical fields you more or less had to learn German as that where a lot of the research was done - in chemistry it was effectively mandatory. Before that a natural philosophers had to learn/know Latin.
steveklabnik 13y ago
> How about you try to pick up some new programming language using only 日本語 documentation? Funny story: Ruby took a while to catch on outside of Japan because its docs were all in 日本語. The Pickaxe was created by basically ignoring all the docs, reading the C, and playing around in the REPL. Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_languages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_l...