4 ms·

I do find it disturbing that Sweden /requires/ you to send your kids to a government institute for hours each day to be educated. In practice, of course, free

by alipang 13y ago

I do find it disturbing that Sweden /requires/ you to send your kids to a government institute for hours each day to be educated. In practice, of course, free education is a great privilege for most families, but I fail how you a free society in congruent with this law. I'm Swedish, but have left the country. The quality of Swedish schools is less than outstanding imo.

ars 13y ago
> a government institute What about private schools?
darklajid 13y ago
I guess that's fine. You have always the option to leave a group of people/a society that has a different opinion. Germany requires the same (Homeschooling isn't allowed, except in very specific cases -> A child that cannot be transported/isn't mobile at all for example). For me that is The Right Way. The same education for everyone. If the public education sucks, we need to improve that not work around the issue. And .. the majority of reasons for homeschooling are plain invalid in my world (often based on religious ideas, claiming that the curriculum is containing 'forbidden'/'evil'/'wrong' stuff). 'Free society' doesn't imply the right to do everything. You cannot drink and drive. You're not allowed to beat your (very own, hey you made those!) children. For some, myself included, the requirement to send your kids to a 'real' school is a necessary thing and not Restricting The Freedom. You're free to disagree (both in Sweden and Germany), but in that case you need to decide if that freedom is important enough to warrant a move - or you can try to lobby against the majority/the status quo. Ignoring the state and law (as the family seemed to have done) or calling it wrong won't help.
- greenyoda 13y ago
  "For me that is The Right Way. The same education for everyone." Aren't there private schools in Germany where the wealthy send their children? If there are, then why shouldn't everyone have the choice to opt out of the public school system, not just the wealthy?
  - sentenza 13y ago
    Accredited private schools that are staffed with teachers that went through the same educational path as the public school teachers. Not home schooling.
- ars 13y ago
  > If the public education sucks What if group education is the problem? Parents being allowed to teach their children is a human right, and it's only very strange countries that block it. It smacks of government indoctrination. > And .. the majority of reasons for homeschooling are plain invalid in my world (often based on religious ideas, claiming that the curriculum is containing 'forbidden'/'evil'/'wrong' stuff). I guess the government indoctrination is working on you. (Did they run some propaganda ads to make you believe such a strange thing?) No, the reason most parents homeschool is that they can do a much better job, because you don't have to spend half of the day on useless structure and discipline. By doing that you free up so much time that kids can learn twice as much as non homeschooled kids. Or they can learn other subjects not normally taught, or they can explore their interests. It's not for all parents of course, it requires a good commitment. But homeschooled kids end up with much better educations that regular schooled ones. There have been many studies in the US on this subject and the results are very clear: Homeschooling works much better. > 'Free society' doesn't imply the right to do everything. For some, myself included, the requirement to send your kids to a 'real' school is a necessary thing and not Restricting The Freedom. Of course it is restricting. You have just been brainwashed. A society can make up any rules it likes, and I guess you'll go along with it. But you have to have a good reason for the rules. And there is no good reason at all for the ban on homeschooling.
  - darklajid 13y ago
    So, because I disagree with your point of view I am 'brainwashed'? Should I continue on the same path and attack you, personally, for the 'obvious' mistake of thinking that way? In my world parents can teach their children everything - on top of the regulated, quality-controlled standard education. Why? Because otherwise you cannot control that a child receives decent education. And no, brainwashing (to use your term here) your own child or deciding that math and biology are not relevant, but let's do just sports instead, is not a human right. Education is. Home schooling offers little benefits and leads to huge problems (regulation, quality control are my biggest issues with it). > It's not for all parents of course Oh? Really? So .. we should decide on a case by case basis? Maybe ask for a 'driving license' to teach your kids? I think we have a degree in Germany that involves something similar... > Homeschooling works much better No. And quite frankly, I couldn't give a damn about the US here. Show me the sources and I'll probably find out that most of the 'home-schooled' were privileged rich kids where people bought their way out of the 'normal' way. And probably all the nutjobs (again, you have a couple of interesting religious groups in the US that like your concept as well) are excluded from the study. But hey, surprise me and find me a relevant study? > Of course it is restricting Oh man.. The US way again. Freedom > everything else, right? Without starting to point out that you don't live in a free country according to _my_ definition: We don't even agree on the priority of things here. Germany has no free speech as you know it. And I want that to remain the way it is. My (liberal, pirate party voting) peers largely agree. This isn't 'brainwashed' or stupid, that's a difference in culture, a model of values that doesn't match your own. And let me close with a stab of my own: If this is the way you like to lead an argument, I doubt that you're able to school a kid. "Those Germans? Brainwashed. They do atrocious things, show naked skin on TV, supress free speech and take kids away. In the night. Before they eat them"
DanBC 13y ago
Many (but not all!) people who homeschool do so because they wish to indoctrinate their children with weird beliefs or untruths, and because they want to prevent their children mixing with a diverse population. Neo nazis, radical extreme Muslims, Christians and Jews, Hippies - they all say very similar things for home schooling. This is the same kind of freedom that allows people to not vaccinate their children or to spend millions of dollars campaigning against Vapor Trails or Muslim-Sympathising-9/11-Commemorative-Sculptures or god only knows what other loony nonsense. Withdrawing your child from schools because schools are lousy is valid, but feels like a sad and selfish defeat. Why is education still run by people who ignore evidence? Why is education still in the grip of politicians?
- tekalon 13y ago
  Ask most homeschooling American parents (which is becoming a big thing now) and they will not answer that. Many are since the school system is lacking (and fighting it takes as long as the child's education if not longer). Others are due to the child needing specialized care that the system does not/cannot provide, examples being that the student had ADD/ADHD, on the autism spectrum, is gifted and bored but the school has no advanced options. There are many online/mail schooling options that help parents with topics, but also open the parent to create their own lessons (going to museums, go to a hacker/maker group, travel etc) that might be more hands on. There are also many homeschool groups where parents rotate teaching and opens up for 'socialization' (for those that worry about that issue). I'm not disagreeing that there are groups that are extreme, there will always be, but assuming that the majority are extreme and want to 'indoctrinate' with 'weird' beliefs is rather uninformed.
- ars 13y ago
  > because they want to prevent their children mixing with a diverse population. No, they just send their children to private school. > Neo nazis, radical extreme Muslims, Christians and Jews, Hippies - they all say very similar things for home schooling. No they don't. You have just been brainwashed by your government. You and darklajid both have very bizarre views about homeschooling - whoever is in charge of propaganda is clearly doing a good job, but he is not doing a truthful job. (Also go read my reply to him https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6316449 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6316449 ) It is stunning to find a modern country abusing human rights this way, and using a propaganda campaign to make their own citizens actually believe they are doing the right thing! I did not realize it was this easy to manipulate people with outright lies.
dagw 13y ago
Technically Sweden gives you a choice as to whether you want to send your kid to a private or government institute. Of course getting into one of the few decent private schools is somewhat non-trivial, making it slightly less of choice.

by alipang 13y ago

ars 13y ago

> a government institute What about private schools?

darklajid 13y ago

I guess that's fine. You have always the option to leave a group of people/a society that has a different opinion. Germany requires the same (Homeschooling isn't allowed, except in very specific cases -> A child that cannot be transported/isn't mobile at all for example). For me that is The Right Way. The same education for everyone. If the public education sucks, we need to improve that not work around the issue. And .. the majority of reasons for homeschooling are plain invalid in my world (often based on religious ideas, claiming that the curriculum is containing 'forbidden'/'evil'/'wrong' stuff). 'Free society' doesn't imply the right to do everything. You cannot drink and drive. You're not allowed to beat your (very own, hey you made those!) children. For some, myself included, the requirement to send your kids to a 'real' school is a necessary thing and not Restricting The Freedom. You're free to disagree (both in Sweden and Germany), but in that case you need to decide if that freedom is important enough to warrant a move - or you can try to lobby against the majority/the status quo. Ignoring the state and law (as the family seemed to have done) or calling it wrong won't help.

greenyoda 13y ago
"For me that is The Right Way. The same education for everyone." Aren't there private schools in Germany where the wealthy send their children? If there are, then why shouldn't everyone have the choice to opt out of the public school system, not just the wealthy?
- sentenza 13y ago
  Accredited private schools that are staffed with teachers that went through the same educational path as the public school teachers. Not home schooling.
ars 13y ago
> If the public education sucks What if group education is the problem? Parents being allowed to teach their children is a human right, and it's only very strange countries that block it. It smacks of government indoctrination. > And .. the majority of reasons for homeschooling are plain invalid in my world (often based on religious ideas, claiming that the curriculum is containing 'forbidden'/'evil'/'wrong' stuff). I guess the government indoctrination is working on you. (Did they run some propaganda ads to make you believe such a strange thing?) No, the reason most parents homeschool is that they can do a much better job, because you don't have to spend half of the day on useless structure and discipline. By doing that you free up so much time that kids can learn twice as much as non homeschooled kids. Or they can learn other subjects not normally taught, or they can explore their interests. It's not for all parents of course, it requires a good commitment. But homeschooled kids end up with much better educations that regular schooled ones. There have been many studies in the US on this subject and the results are very clear: Homeschooling works much better. > 'Free society' doesn't imply the right to do everything. For some, myself included, the requirement to send your kids to a 'real' school is a necessary thing and not Restricting The Freedom. Of course it is restricting. You have just been brainwashed. A society can make up any rules it likes, and I guess you'll go along with it. But you have to have a good reason for the rules. And there is no good reason at all for the ban on homeschooling.
- darklajid 13y ago
  So, because I disagree with your point of view I am 'brainwashed'? Should I continue on the same path and attack you, personally, for the 'obvious' mistake of thinking that way? In my world parents can teach their children everything - on top of the regulated, quality-controlled standard education. Why? Because otherwise you cannot control that a child receives decent education. And no, brainwashing (to use your term here) your own child or deciding that math and biology are not relevant, but let's do just sports instead, is not a human right. Education is. Home schooling offers little benefits and leads to huge problems (regulation, quality control are my biggest issues with it). > It's not for all parents of course Oh? Really? So .. we should decide on a case by case basis? Maybe ask for a 'driving license' to teach your kids? I think we have a degree in Germany that involves something similar... > Homeschooling works much better No. And quite frankly, I couldn't give a damn about the US here. Show me the sources and I'll probably find out that most of the 'home-schooled' were privileged rich kids where people bought their way out of the 'normal' way. And probably all the nutjobs (again, you have a couple of interesting religious groups in the US that like your concept as well) are excluded from the study. But hey, surprise me and find me a relevant study? > Of course it is restricting Oh man.. The US way again. Freedom > everything else, right? Without starting to point out that you don't live in a free country according to _my_ definition: We don't even agree on the priority of things here. Germany has no free speech as you know it. And I want that to remain the way it is. My (liberal, pirate party voting) peers largely agree. This isn't 'brainwashed' or stupid, that's a difference in culture, a model of values that doesn't match your own. And let me close with a stab of my own: If this is the way you like to lead an argument, I doubt that you're able to school a kid. "Those Germans? Brainwashed. They do atrocious things, show naked skin on TV, supress free speech and take kids away. In the night. Before they eat them"

DanBC 13y ago

Many (but not all!) people who homeschool do so because they wish to indoctrinate their children with weird beliefs or untruths, and because they want to prevent their children mixing with a diverse population. Neo nazis, radical extreme Muslims, Christians and Jews, Hippies - they all say very similar things for home schooling. This is the same kind of freedom that allows people to not vaccinate their children or to spend millions of dollars campaigning against Vapor Trails or Muslim-Sympathising-9/11-Commemorative-Sculptures or god only knows what other loony nonsense. Withdrawing your child from schools because schools are lousy is valid, but feels like a sad and selfish defeat. Why is education still run by people who ignore evidence? Why is education still in the grip of politicians?

tekalon 13y ago
Ask most homeschooling American parents (which is becoming a big thing now) and they will not answer that. Many are since the school system is lacking (and fighting it takes as long as the child's education if not longer). Others are due to the child needing specialized care that the system does not/cannot provide, examples being that the student had ADD/ADHD, on the autism spectrum, is gifted and bored but the school has no advanced options. There are many online/mail schooling options that help parents with topics, but also open the parent to create their own lessons (going to museums, go to a hacker/maker group, travel etc) that might be more hands on. There are also many homeschool groups where parents rotate teaching and opens up for 'socialization' (for those that worry about that issue). I'm not disagreeing that there are groups that are extreme, there will always be, but assuming that the majority are extreme and want to 'indoctrinate' with 'weird' beliefs is rather uninformed.
ars 13y ago
> because they want to prevent their children mixing with a diverse population. No, they just send their children to private school. > Neo nazis, radical extreme Muslims, Christians and Jews, Hippies - they all say very similar things for home schooling. No they don't. You have just been brainwashed by your government. You and darklajid both have very bizarre views about homeschooling - whoever is in charge of propaganda is clearly doing a good job, but he is not doing a truthful job. (Also go read my reply to him https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6316449 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6316449 ) It is stunning to find a modern country abusing human rights this way, and using a propaganda campaign to make their own citizens actually believe they are doing the right thing! I did not realize it was this easy to manipulate people with outright lies.

dagw 13y ago

Technically Sweden gives you a choice as to whether you want to send your kid to a private or government institute. Of course getting into one of the few decent private schools is somewhat non-trivial, making it slightly less of choice.