3 ms·

I'm still hoping for some sort of disruption that will change the game. The line of thinking is along these lines: The core of what elite colleges (or any coll

by netsp 17y ago

I'm still hoping for some sort of disruption that will change the game. The line of thinking is along these lines: The core of what elite colleges (or any colleges) is not really valuable. A university course is mostly a syllabus, a textbook, lectures, tutorials, papers & exams. All are based on knowledge that is freely available. You do not need a Professor who spends most of his time on research that doesn't benefit you teaching you. It wouldn't even be hard to offer the core of what Universities offer at a much lower cost. What is hard to offer is the vast periphery. The clubs & socialisation. The Gyms. The contact with researchers & other talented and/or rich young people. The social norms & leeway associated with Undergraduate life (this might be more important then we think). The prestige. The prospects created by the contacts, the prestige, the social conditioning & whatever else goes in to making a University education other then education. A potential catalyst could be the growing Internationalisation of Uni education.

potatolicious 17y ago
I just finished my undergrad degree a month ago, and I think I have some insight into this. By far the most valuable thing I take away from university is not the classes, but rather the experience. As a student you get a lot of leeway to screw up and learn - even interning at large, private corporations. This has helped me in my life (and my career) more immensely than anything else I've ever learned at school (most of which I doubt I will apply in a job, ever). Secondly, the networking opportunities that you have at a university is ridiculously useful. Short of going to war together I doubt there are many forces that bind people together as tightly as the college experience. I have made many friends, many of whom are incredibly talented and will no doubt go far in life - it's a network that you can't replicate, say, studying online. Thirdly is the name - prestigious schools, whether justifiably or not, do for some reason make you more employable in a lot of places. I know many a hacker from "lesser" colleges who can't find a job in this economy, while I had multiple offers before my final semester even started.
- netsp 17y ago
  I suspect that the strongest thing holding all those aspects together is convention. I think the institution is very entrenched in the US. maybe the place for innovation is outside. In Israel (where I am from), a lot of people do go to war together. So they're sorted for friends. Actually, most don't physically fight, but they still make friends. There is an additional (recent) institution of backpacking/travelling that tackles some of this friends/experiences/growth/leeway territory. University entrance tends to be 20-25 yr olds. So, the whole dynamic is very different. A lot of no frills courses are offered. Cost effectiveness is a big factor ,though naturally the level of Government intervention messes with this and doesn't allow private colleges to compete with research Unis on equal footing. Another place change might come from are the places in the world now entering the growing middle income per capita range (not sure what that is exactly. But I think around 2-$10k pa) where people care about education, can afford some of it, but can't afford $100k or even 10k. They also are first generation entrants & don't have too formulated an idea of what schools should be. Basically, what I am saying is that if you took Universities away and then let something else grow in their place, it probably wouldn't be universities.
  - bored 17y ago
    I don't think we need to take universities away, just the unnecessary competition-induced crap that makes them so expensive. The "college experience" we all hear about can be done on a way smaller budget. And like you mention, universities probably aren't the best at it anyways.
tjmc 17y ago
Depends on what you're studying. Subjects like medicine, dentistry and chemistry need extensive lab facilities and highly skilled, often personal tuition. That's going to cost a lot no matter where it's done. On a broader level you also need to consider the value of networking opportunities. Is the course content of a Harvard MBA really that much better than elsewhere? Of course not. It's the contacts you make while you're there.
- netsp 17y ago
  Possibly, but this needn't affect those studying history. I listen to this economist podcast here & there. Recently, they were talking about how strange it is that they need any kind of qualifications to do the thing that they get paid for. They tell undergrads that the demand curve slopes down & the supply curve slopes the other way. That knowledge is freely available and easily accessible. Yet their students bid up the price of the best academics to tell them this. A better professor's demand curve slopes the same as a crappier one's. You may be right that this does not apply to dentistry.
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    As others have said, the knowledge in most universities is not what you are paying for. I am currently getting my Master's in Mathematics. I am truly learning a great deal, but that is not what I am paying for. All of the information in the classes I am taking is readily available for free or extremely cheap. From my perspective I am paying for 3 things: 1. A ready made (albiet small) community of other math grad students that can answer my questions when I don't understand some of the freely available information. 2. A highly educated professor that can provide further explanation and advice if my peer group of math grad students can't explain it well enough to me. 3. (arguably most important) A respected institution prepared to certify to prospective employers that I really have gained gained those skills. The knowledge is free, you can get #1 on your own with a little work and a little luck, but #2 is hard to get without being an actual student and #3 is is very hard to get without the institution. And before people say you don't need #3, it helps you get interviews if not necessarily jobs. I have been that hiring manager that has to weed through dozens of resumes to determine who I am going to spend my time interviewing. A degree was certainly a good discriminator for who was worth my time. I certainly didn't require it and I interviewed people who had experience but no degree, but they had to have something else on their resume to show me it was worth my time. I worked for a small company, when dealing with middle management (or worse, HR) at a big company, they really want to be able to cover themselves and show why they hired someone on paper. To many of them being able to justify the decision is more important then actually getting the best person. The degree makes it alot easier for them to do that. If you plan to start your own company, a degree is meaningless of course, but even Paul Graham says that path should be approached with great caution if you are married with children.
tigerthink 17y ago
>You do not need a Professor who spends most of his time on research that doesn't benefit you teaching you. I don't know if my math professor does research or not. But the guy is a fucking brilliant lecturer. On the other hand, I'm at a community college :o)
asciilifeform 17y ago
> I'm still hoping for some sort of disruption that will change the game. The chance of success is basically zero, but you could lobby for the overturn of the Griggs v. Duke Power Co. decision, the famous lawsuit which resulted in U.S. employers being officially prohibited from using IQ tests in hiring: http://supreme.justia.com/us/401/424/case.html http://supreme.justia.com/us/401/424/case.html This is what gave colleges their monopoly as gatekeepers of the intellectual labor market.

by netsp 17y ago

potatolicious 17y ago

I just finished my undergrad degree a month ago, and I think I have some insight into this. By far the most valuable thing I take away from university is not the classes, but rather the experience. As a student you get a lot of leeway to screw up and learn - even interning at large, private corporations. This has helped me in my life (and my career) more immensely than anything else I've ever learned at school (most of which I doubt I will apply in a job, ever). Secondly, the networking opportunities that you have at a university is ridiculously useful. Short of going to war together I doubt there are many forces that bind people together as tightly as the college experience. I have made many friends, many of whom are incredibly talented and will no doubt go far in life - it's a network that you can't replicate, say, studying online. Thirdly is the name - prestigious schools, whether justifiably or not, do for some reason make you more employable in a lot of places. I know many a hacker from "lesser" colleges who can't find a job in this economy, while I had multiple offers before my final semester even started.

netsp 17y ago
I suspect that the strongest thing holding all those aspects together is convention. I think the institution is very entrenched in the US. maybe the place for innovation is outside. In Israel (where I am from), a lot of people do go to war together. So they're sorted for friends. Actually, most don't physically fight, but they still make friends. There is an additional (recent) institution of backpacking/travelling that tackles some of this friends/experiences/growth/leeway territory. University entrance tends to be 20-25 yr olds. So, the whole dynamic is very different. A lot of no frills courses are offered. Cost effectiveness is a big factor ,though naturally the level of Government intervention messes with this and doesn't allow private colleges to compete with research Unis on equal footing. Another place change might come from are the places in the world now entering the growing middle income per capita range (not sure what that is exactly. But I think around 2-$10k pa) where people care about education, can afford some of it, but can't afford $100k or even 10k. They also are first generation entrants & don't have too formulated an idea of what schools should be. Basically, what I am saying is that if you took Universities away and then let something else grow in their place, it probably wouldn't be universities.
- bored 17y ago
  I don't think we need to take universities away, just the unnecessary competition-induced crap that makes them so expensive. The "college experience" we all hear about can be done on a way smaller budget. And like you mention, universities probably aren't the best at it anyways.

tjmc 17y ago

Depends on what you're studying. Subjects like medicine, dentistry and chemistry need extensive lab facilities and highly skilled, often personal tuition. That's going to cost a lot no matter where it's done. On a broader level you also need to consider the value of networking opportunities. Is the course content of a Harvard MBA really that much better than elsewhere? Of course not. It's the contacts you make while you're there.

netsp 17y ago
Possibly, but this needn't affect those studying history. I listen to this economist podcast here & there. Recently, they were talking about how strange it is that they need any kind of qualifications to do the thing that they get paid for. They tell undergrads that the demand curve slopes down & the supply curve slopes the other way. That knowledge is freely available and easily accessible. Yet their students bid up the price of the best academics to tell them this. A better professor's demand curve slopes the same as a crappier one's. You may be right that this does not apply to dentistry.
- timwiseman 17y ago
  As others have said, the knowledge in most universities is not what you are paying for. I am currently getting my Master's in Mathematics. I am truly learning a great deal, but that is not what I am paying for. All of the information in the classes I am taking is readily available for free or extremely cheap. From my perspective I am paying for 3 things: 1. A ready made (albiet small) community of other math grad students that can answer my questions when I don't understand some of the freely available information. 2. A highly educated professor that can provide further explanation and advice if my peer group of math grad students can't explain it well enough to me. 3. (arguably most important) A respected institution prepared to certify to prospective employers that I really have gained gained those skills. The knowledge is free, you can get #1 on your own with a little work and a little luck, but #2 is hard to get without being an actual student and #3 is is very hard to get without the institution. And before people say you don't need #3, it helps you get interviews if not necessarily jobs. I have been that hiring manager that has to weed through dozens of resumes to determine who I am going to spend my time interviewing. A degree was certainly a good discriminator for who was worth my time. I certainly didn't require it and I interviewed people who had experience but no degree, but they had to have something else on their resume to show me it was worth my time. I worked for a small company, when dealing with middle management (or worse, HR) at a big company, they really want to be able to cover themselves and show why they hired someone on paper. To many of them being able to justify the decision is more important then actually getting the best person. The degree makes it alot easier for them to do that. If you plan to start your own company, a degree is meaningless of course, but even Paul Graham says that path should be approached with great caution if you are married with children.

tigerthink 17y ago

>You do not need a Professor who spends most of his time on research that doesn't benefit you teaching you. I don't know if my math professor does research or not. But the guy is a fucking brilliant lecturer. On the other hand, I'm at a community college :o)

asciilifeform 17y ago

> I'm still hoping for some sort of disruption that will change the game. The chance of success is basically zero, but you could lobby for the overturn of the Griggs v. Duke Power Co. decision, the famous lawsuit which resulted in U.S. employers being officially prohibited from using IQ tests in hiring: http://supreme.justia.com/us/401/424/case.html http://supreme.justia.com/us/401/424/case.html This is what gave colleges their monopoly as gatekeepers of the intellectual labor market.