5 ms·

> What do I want instead of a Strong Female Character? I want a male:female character ratio of 1:1 instead of 3:1 on our screens. It's going to be hard. What a

by geoka9 13y ago

> What do I want instead of a Strong Female Character? I want a male:female character ratio of 1:1 instead of 3:1 on our screens. It's going to be hard. What are the highest grossing movies? Fantasy/sci-fi and crime thrillers? That means you will have to put up with all the just ratio movies being fantasy, because it's hard to come up with a typical convincing crime thriller plot where there are as many women as men. Realistic films try to portray the reality. If producers start following a feminist agenda, they'll have to sacrifice that. For example, are there many female undercover police officers? Are there many notorious female gangsters? What about bank robbers?

oinksoft 13y ago
Are there many notorious female gangsters? Far fewer than their male counterparts, but there are some pretty nefarious ones, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griselda_Blanco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griselda_Blanco
saraid216 13y ago
> Realistic films try to portray the reality. Heh. No, they don't. We call it fiction because it's fictional. What you're really saying is that, as a culture, we're incapable of believing something if it doesn't conform to certain expectations. Which, yes, includes being unable to believe that women might be undercover cops, might be notorious gangsters, might be bank robbers. Funny story: that's exactly the problem.
- geoka9 13y ago
  > Which, yes, includes being unable to believe that women might be undercover cops, might be notorious gangsters, might be bank robbers. Really, are there many prototypes in real life? I suspect there may be enough to inspire a handful of movies, but after that it will become obvious that it's a niche film.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    Why do you need prototypes? Do you personally know any undercover cops, notorious gangsters, or bank robbers? Is there something particularly gendered about these roles that requires a man to play them?
    - geoka9 13y ago
      Most of the crime movies I like are based on real events. As many of those movies also tend to become classics, I think my preference is not that peculiar. Do you really suggest that authors should be obliged to cast at least 50% of roles as females even when it does not reflect the reality being portrayed? Why? Just to make a case for feminism? Don't you think it would hurting the equality cause in the first place?
      - saraid216 13y ago
        > Most of the crime movies I like are based on real events. Tell you what. Provide some examples so that I can actually work through one and explain how it could have been adequately feminist without detracting from your entertainment. It would be helpful if it has a Wikipedia article detailing the original real life inspiration, since I don't know anything about this subject. > Do you really suggest that authors should be obliged to cast at least 50% of roles as females even when it does not reflect the reality being portrayed? Nope. As long as any females present in the movie are portrayed with equal realism, it's fine. This is virtually never the case. I recently read a 2009 feminist critique of The Wire which noted that despite Snoop and Kima, females were depicted fairly poorly overall. I love The Wire. But they were right. One of the biggest hurdles with feminism in entertainment is that the problem isn't with particular movies. It's that the crushingly overwhelming majority of the movies are sexist. So you find that no one is willing to be the first person to decide to not be sexist, because you're breaking the mold. It wouldn't be terrible if only, say, 20% of movies were sexist. But the percentage is closer to 90, 95. Just like video games are only for boys, so of course they're all male fantasies. Or comic books are only for boys, so of course they're all male fantasies.
      - saraid216 13y ago
        Incidentally, I'd really like you to read this in case you haven't: http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/ http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-o...
- Tichy 13y ago
  Haven't the expectations usually formed from experience? I don't understand how that is a problem. Is the theory that if there were more movies about female bank robbers, there would be more real bank robbers, in turn making us believe movies about female bank robbers, which would lead to more movies about female bank robbers - goal achieved?
  - saraid216 13y ago
    > Is the theory that if there were more movies about female bank robbers, there would be more real bank robbers, in turn making us believe movies about female bank robbers, which would lead to more movies about female bank robbers - goal achieved? Yes. Just like if there were more movies about female Nazgul there would be more real female Nazgul in turn making us believe movies about female Nagul, which would lead to more movies about female Nazgul.
    - Tichy 13y ago
      Great example to illustrate that the whole discussion is somewhat pointless. Although it really seems likely that there are too few female villains in movies, skewing people's perception of women.
      - saraid216 13y ago
        Because there are so many female heroes.
        Tichy 13y ago
        There are many, many movies with women as the main actrice. Even female heroes. What do you mean by hero, somebody who carries heavy guns and mows down lots of enemies? Even those exist, for example Resident Evil (totally unrealistic of course). Have you even actually counted the movies with male and female heroes, or do you just have a gut feeling that there are only few female heroes? While you are counting, you could also count how many men die as collateral damage ("guards") vs how many women. Edit: some more I remembered in the meantime: Underworld series, Alien series, Aeon Flux, Buffy, Dark Angel, Nikita

by geoka9 13y ago

oinksoft 13y ago

Are there many notorious female gangsters? Far fewer than their male counterparts, but there are some pretty nefarious ones, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griselda_Blanco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griselda_Blanco

saraid216 13y ago

> Realistic films try to portray the reality. Heh. No, they don't. We call it fiction because it's fictional. What you're really saying is that, as a culture, we're incapable of believing something if it doesn't conform to certain expectations. Which, yes, includes being unable to believe that women might be undercover cops, might be notorious gangsters, might be bank robbers. Funny story: that's exactly the problem.

geoka9 13y ago
> Which, yes, includes being unable to believe that women might be undercover cops, might be notorious gangsters, might be bank robbers. Really, are there many prototypes in real life? I suspect there may be enough to inspire a handful of movies, but after that it will become obvious that it's a niche film.
- saraid216 13y ago
  Why do you need prototypes? Do you personally know any undercover cops, notorious gangsters, or bank robbers? Is there something particularly gendered about these roles that requires a man to play them?
  - geoka9 13y ago
    Most of the crime movies I like are based on real events. As many of those movies also tend to become classics, I think my preference is not that peculiar. Do you really suggest that authors should be obliged to cast at least 50% of roles as females even when it does not reflect the reality being portrayed? Why? Just to make a case for feminism? Don't you think it would hurting the equality cause in the first place?
    - saraid216 13y ago
      > Most of the crime movies I like are based on real events. Tell you what. Provide some examples so that I can actually work through one and explain how it could have been adequately feminist without detracting from your entertainment. It would be helpful if it has a Wikipedia article detailing the original real life inspiration, since I don't know anything about this subject. > Do you really suggest that authors should be obliged to cast at least 50% of roles as females even when it does not reflect the reality being portrayed? Nope. As long as any females present in the movie are portrayed with equal realism, it's fine. This is virtually never the case. I recently read a 2009 feminist critique of The Wire which noted that despite Snoop and Kima, females were depicted fairly poorly overall. I love The Wire. But they were right. One of the biggest hurdles with feminism in entertainment is that the problem isn't with particular movies. It's that the crushingly overwhelming majority of the movies are sexist. So you find that no one is willing to be the first person to decide to not be sexist, because you're breaking the mold. It wouldn't be terrible if only, say, 20% of movies were sexist. But the percentage is closer to 90, 95. Just like video games are only for boys, so of course they're all male fantasies. Or comic books are only for boys, so of course they're all male fantasies.
    - saraid216 13y ago
      Incidentally, I'd really like you to read this in case you haven't: http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things/ http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-o...
Tichy 13y ago
Haven't the expectations usually formed from experience? I don't understand how that is a problem. Is the theory that if there were more movies about female bank robbers, there would be more real bank robbers, in turn making us believe movies about female bank robbers, which would lead to more movies about female bank robbers - goal achieved?
- saraid216 13y ago
  > Is the theory that if there were more movies about female bank robbers, there would be more real bank robbers, in turn making us believe movies about female bank robbers, which would lead to more movies about female bank robbers - goal achieved? Yes. Just like if there were more movies about female Nazgul there would be more real female Nazgul in turn making us believe movies about female Nagul, which would lead to more movies about female Nazgul.
  - Tichy 13y ago
    Great example to illustrate that the whole discussion is somewhat pointless. Although it really seems likely that there are too few female villains in movies, skewing people's perception of women.
    - saraid216 13y ago
      Because there are so many female heroes.
      - Tichy 13y ago
        There are many, many movies with women as the main actrice. Even female heroes. What do you mean by hero, somebody who carries heavy guns and mows down lots of enemies? Even those exist, for example Resident Evil (totally unrealistic of course). Have you even actually counted the movies with male and female heroes, or do you just have a gut feeling that there are only few female heroes? While you are counting, you could also count how many men die as collateral damage ("guards") vs how many women. Edit: some more I remembered in the meantime: Underworld series, Alien series, Aeon Flux, Buffy, Dark Angel, Nikita