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I don't think that the parent poster is saying "women are put off by nudity". (As you point out, there are other contexts where women can often be just as comfo
by Steuard 13y ago
I don't think that the parent poster is saying "women are put off by nudity". (As you point out, there are other contexts where women can often be just as comfortable with it as men are.) As I read it, the parent poster is saying that women are less interested in working in professional environments where their colleagues expose them to nudity unnecessarily. (That word "unnecessarily" may be part of why things are different in art than in graphics research.)
Someone else has already shared some formal research on how other "in-group" signals have exactly this effect. I don't think it's much of a stretch to suggest that "public consumption of heterosexual-male-targeted erotica" could have a similar effect. But even without that research, the fact is that plenty of women have been very explicit that nude or sexual images in the workplace make them feel unwelcome, unequal, and in some cases even threatened. Regardless of the deep causes of those reactions, the experience is undeniably real for the people who report it. And that comes back to the parent poster's point: if your company environment welcomes nude or erotic imagery without good reason, many women will choose not to work with you.
Finally, you ask whether it's unfair for one culture ("women", broadly speaking) to project its own cultural norms onto another ("computing", in this case). I see two answers. First, the pure capitalism that some folks here are fond of: if your company's atmosphere tends to push away talented female employees and your competitor's does not, they'll be more successful at drawing on that talent pool, eventually giving them a big advantage. (One could probably extend that reasoning to entire industries or societies with a little work.) And second, a social justice perspective: not all norms are morally equivalent. The classic example is that slavery used to be a perfectly accepted norm, but few today would argue that it was wrong for the abolitionists to seek to change it. I'd like to think that one day our social context will have shifted enough that nude images in the workplace will have the same impact on men and on women, but we aren't there now and it's hard to imagine it happening in my lifetime (or even two or three generations down).
[Oh, and one more point, since it's something that took me years to catch on to: as a guy, I'm very cautious these days when it comes to deep theorizing about why women (or other underrepresented groups) might feel the way they do about issues like this. The thing is, while trying to reason out all this stuff is just an intriguing intellectual exercise for me, for women it's their constant reality. And let me tell you, there's no upside to taking someone who's obviously unhappy about something and trying to dispassionately pick apart what exactly about it is bothering them. In the end, it's almost always more productive to simply say, "Wow, thanks for letting me know you feel that way. What can we do to make it better?"]
- asgard1024 13y agoMy point was that the nudity in art is, for the most part, unnecessary. Yet people, including women, bear with it. The point is, there is probably no absolute, specific reason (such as nudity) why women don't want to go to CS. The reason may well be the cultural difference from the norm (of majority of population) itself, no matter what it is. Whether it's nudity or Star Trek, doesn't matter. So the morality doesn't even come into play here. And that's why positive examples are needed. To show, "OK, it's a bit different culture, but that's fine" sort of thing. (Also to show that girls can be good in CS, because they often seem to lack confidence in this - at least I met several that didn't feel they could be programmers, even though they were lot smarter than me.)