3 ms·

I really would not talk to upper management. If the guy got moved to a profitable department, it means he has friends there. You're gonna lose, and risk a bad r

by UK-AL 13y ago

I really would not talk to upper management. If the guy got moved to a profitable department, it means he has friends there. You're gonna lose, and risk a bad reference which would make it difficult to get a new job. Remember who put him there, if it was bad choice, it means upper management made a bad decision. In my experience upper management will do anything but admit to a bad decision. Just silently leave for another job, try to make sure you will get a good/neutral reference. Remember future employers will just think your bad/unskilled if you get a bad reference rather than the fact you got into politics. Larger companies have an automatic no, to bad references and won't accept excuses. Since they assume your a bad person/almost criminal (the only point large corporates will give a bad reference normally) and probably lying. Limiting you to small companies for your next job. Its nice to think you can be a hero and fix this, but you can only do that if your someone with significant power in the company like a founder, or an early employee who is best buds with senior management. Since HN is full of these types, they can be idealistic. I've been through situations like this, and this is what I would do now rather then potentially making your life hell. Situations like this is a massive problem with modern company structure.

hugofirth 13y ago
As a side point - am I incorrect in believing that it is, in fact, Illegal to give a bad reference? I was under the impression that your only recourse was, instead, to decline to provide a reference at all.
- amirmc 13y ago
  There's damming with faint praise, or the non-commital 'yeah, he worked here between these dates'. Neither one of those says anything bad per se, but they can signal the unwillingness to provide a good reference.
- noir_lord 13y ago
  This is true in practice if not in law. Many large companies will not give a reference at all merely confirming dates worked from and too. I think it was because someone once sued (successfully) over a bad reference.
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    I can confirm that the annual training eBay employees are required to take explicitly specifies that you must never give anyone a reference. I find the phenomenon perverse enough that I actually took a screenshot of that point in the training. :/
- UK-AL 13y ago
  Its not illegal, but can get the company legal trouble if they out-right lie. They can however bend the truth, or use difficult to disprove accusations. Most large companies send a form that refer has to fill in. Rate 1 to 10 on attention to detail for example. If the person giving the reference does not like you, there are many ways to bend the truth. Mark you down for lateness, when it was in the companies culture for implied flexitime for example.
- michaelcampbell 13y ago
  I don't think it's illegal, just doing so opens you up to legal challenges from the person. And you may be 100% provably correct, but no one wants to go through the legal wranglings to deal with it, so the typical corporate response is to just provide the quantifiable facts - dates of employment.
- codeonfire 13y ago
  Giving a bad reference is not illegal in the US, but if I lost money due to a bad reference then I would be taking that person to court where he/she can either better explain their concrete reasons for the bad reference or pay damages. Since the last thing typical FOS people want is to explain their (nonexistent) reasons, they will be paying damages or learn not to give references at all
  - walshemj 13y ago
    This is the UK and not the US but bad references will land the employer in deep shit.
    - UK-AL 13y ago
      90% of the time, it won't. For a start the employee has to have the time and the money to start legal proceedings. A lot won't, especially if your unemployed at the time.
- tokenadult 13y ago
  In the United States it is perfectly legal to give a truthful reference, good or bad. If the truth appears to be debatable, just stick to the facts. If the person inquiring asks for a "deep reference," (someone else who knows the applicant besides you), it is also perfectly legal in the United States to provide that information. (This surprises a lot of job-seekers in the United States, who would like to believe that the law is otherwise, but this is the law. In general, you can say truthful things about current or former employees, including identifying other people who know about them.) I have been looking up information about employment law (mainly in the United States, but also around the world) as part of a promised update to my FAQ on company hiring procedures https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5227923 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5227923 that I will post to my personal website.
  - MetaCosm 13y ago
    Absolute true. But you will only get sued for a bad reference, it simply isn't worth the corporate risk. The corporation gains literally nothing and exposes itself to legal liability. There are reasons HR have strong policies on this -- it is all liability and downside with no upside.
benjvi 13y ago
You make a good point, but perhaps its not so black-and-white as that. If the OP has no real relationship with more senior management, then it is indeed a risky move to take it there. But we don't have very much information to say what the relationships are. It may very well be possible to bring this up intially in a non-accusatory, informal sort of way. And, just in case you are around when the shit does hit the fan, then, surely, you would want to have some evidence to show that you pushed to take action to correct the problems you saw. There's no mention even of any documentation of their concerns, which surely should be priority number one. I have seen similar (if less extreme) cases where developers knew about problems that no-one acted on. And guess what? When the impact from the problems became apparent, they took the blame, because they had no evidence to exonerate themselves. If the culture of the upper management is not as bad as you assume, then you will end up looking like the bad guy by keeping quiet.

by UK-AL 13y ago

hugofirth 13y ago

As a side point - am I incorrect in believing that it is, in fact, Illegal to give a bad reference? I was under the impression that your only recourse was, instead, to decline to provide a reference at all.

amirmc 13y ago
There's damming with faint praise, or the non-commital 'yeah, he worked here between these dates'. Neither one of those says anything bad per se, but they can signal the unwillingness to provide a good reference.
noir_lord 13y ago
This is true in practice if not in law. Many large companies will not give a reference at all merely confirming dates worked from and too. I think it was because someone once sued (successfully) over a bad reference.
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  I can confirm that the annual training eBay employees are required to take explicitly specifies that you must never give anyone a reference. I find the phenomenon perverse enough that I actually took a screenshot of that point in the training. :/
UK-AL 13y ago
Its not illegal, but can get the company legal trouble if they out-right lie. They can however bend the truth, or use difficult to disprove accusations. Most large companies send a form that refer has to fill in. Rate 1 to 10 on attention to detail for example. If the person giving the reference does not like you, there are many ways to bend the truth. Mark you down for lateness, when it was in the companies culture for implied flexitime for example.
michaelcampbell 13y ago
I don't think it's illegal, just doing so opens you up to legal challenges from the person. And you may be 100% provably correct, but no one wants to go through the legal wranglings to deal with it, so the typical corporate response is to just provide the quantifiable facts - dates of employment.
codeonfire 13y ago
Giving a bad reference is not illegal in the US, but if I lost money due to a bad reference then I would be taking that person to court where he/she can either better explain their concrete reasons for the bad reference or pay damages. Since the last thing typical FOS people want is to explain their (nonexistent) reasons, they will be paying damages or learn not to give references at all
- walshemj 13y ago
  This is the UK and not the US but bad references will land the employer in deep shit.
  - UK-AL 13y ago
    90% of the time, it won't. For a start the employee has to have the time and the money to start legal proceedings. A lot won't, especially if your unemployed at the time.
tokenadult 13y ago
In the United States it is perfectly legal to give a truthful reference, good or bad. If the truth appears to be debatable, just stick to the facts. If the person inquiring asks for a "deep reference," (someone else who knows the applicant besides you), it is also perfectly legal in the United States to provide that information. (This surprises a lot of job-seekers in the United States, who would like to believe that the law is otherwise, but this is the law. In general, you can say truthful things about current or former employees, including identifying other people who know about them.) I have been looking up information about employment law (mainly in the United States, but also around the world) as part of a promised update to my FAQ on company hiring procedures https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5227923 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5227923 that I will post to my personal website.
- MetaCosm 13y ago
  Absolute true. But you will only get sued for a bad reference, it simply isn't worth the corporate risk. The corporation gains literally nothing and exposes itself to legal liability. There are reasons HR have strong policies on this -- it is all liability and downside with no upside.

benjvi 13y ago

You make a good point, but perhaps its not so black-and-white as that. If the OP has no real relationship with more senior management, then it is indeed a risky move to take it there. But we don't have very much information to say what the relationships are. It may very well be possible to bring this up intially in a non-accusatory, informal sort of way. And, just in case you are around when the shit does hit the fan, then, surely, you would want to have some evidence to show that you pushed to take action to correct the problems you saw. There's no mention even of any documentation of their concerns, which surely should be priority number one. I have seen similar (if less extreme) cases where developers knew about problems that no-one acted on. And guess what? When the impact from the problems became apparent, they took the blame, because they had no evidence to exonerate themselves. If the culture of the upper management is not as bad as you assume, then you will end up looking like the bad guy by keeping quiet.