13 ms·

Welcome to the United States: Discriminated, detained, searched, interrogated

186 points by Libertatea 13y ago

tokenadult 13y ago
"It is an international legal phenomenon that is left much to the discretion of host countries." Yes it is. Every country has this power, and every country uses this power as it wishes. There are plenty of countries that I have no hope whatever of visiting.
_ak 13y ago
Well, that's US-American imperialism for you: declare de-facto jurisdiction over everything, afford rights to nobody. Be that at the US border or at US-run detention facilities outside the US like Guantanamo.
- blackcat 13y ago
  We are about to launch another war from our military bases in Germany. The fatherland's moral outrage is laughable.
  - quantumpotato_ 13y ago
    Explain?
    - frank_boyd 13y ago
      The US justifying a war with "moral values".
    - blackcat 13y ago
      Germany is enabling the US to continue with these ridiculous escapades by not closing US bases for some minuscule economic gain. If you believe these wars, Iraq, Afghanistan and soon Syria are terrible but want to keep the bases you are a hypocrite and either way as culpable for civilian deaths as any American. Many in Germany are upset about these wars, virtually none want to close the bases. Serious willful disconnect there.
      - D9u 13y ago
        I don't see too many Americans chomping at the bit in favor of US intervention in yet another nation which poses absolutely zero viable threat to the the USA. We're sick and tired of interventionist policy, since Korea, Viet Nam, etc, etc, etc. To hold American citizens culpable for the actions of the government which lies to us and spies upon us while claiming "Moral High Ground" is to ignore the fact that we are no longer informed, so the "consent of the governed" is no longer present.
        pyre 13y ago
        > I don't see too many Americans chomping You must not get out much. There are a lot of Americans chomping at the bit to "stick it to those ragheads." It doesn't matter which Middle Eastern country, as long as we go over there and "kick some ass" against people that are different than us, they are 100% on-board.
      - primitur 13y ago
        The only way for Germany to close the US bases is for Germany to declare war on the US. Seriously! US bases in Germany are US territory ..
        nraynaud 13y ago
        I think they are US jurisdiction, not territory, it's like an embassy. There are ways to remove them. There might also be a reason to remove them, in light of the spying involved, if Germany discovers for example that SAP is more negatively impacted by the US spying than positively by the commerce with the US. Same with planes (that's where the suspicions are the highest) car makers and tool machine makers.
        gtirloni 13y ago
        I think your example of SAP is spot on. People see all these news about war, US vs. the world, etc and they take sides, become angry, etc while not questioning the obvious: who is going to have a material gain from this all? I've become quite a cinic about these things and I think economic power / money will usually be behind most of it. Unfortunately I don't believe in countries helping poor people in remote lands, government worried about killings, pride in being the beacon of democracy, etc. It's all about power and money.
- eshvk 13y ago
  I fail to see how "imperialism" applies to U.S. border restrictions. I have found those annoying too (brown + permanent resident) but the word imperialism is incorrectly being applied here, I think.
mixmax 13y ago
If it doesn't already exist someone should make an Iphone and/or android app that will let you lock your phone before you go through customs, and only allow you to unlock it at a specified time and/or place. For instance 5 hours after landing at the location of your booked hotel. That way you won't be able to divulge information held on your phone, even if you wanted to.
- Spearchucker 13y ago
  Overkill. Cross borders clean. I reset my phone every time I cross any border. And then resync everything I need on the other side. I have a TrueCrypt volume I download to my travel laptop. It's small but contains what I need when abroad.
  - josefit 13y ago
    Unfortunately they still might ask you to fire up your laptop, give the password, find the truecrypt volume and then ask you the password for that.
    - e_proxus 13y ago
      You can use a TrueCrypt hidden volume for that. Fill up a normal volume with some plausible data and use the hidden volume for your actual files. http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/hidden-volume http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/hidden-volume
      - pearjuice 13y ago
        If they were actually on you, they would find the hidden volume too.
    - Spearchucker 13y ago
      Sorry, my post was a bit sparse on detail. I keep a TC volume (file) on three separate public file shares. My laptop is clean. I download and install TruCrypt, and download the TC volume once I'm through customs. When I say clean, I mean that there's no trace of anything on any of my devices while I cross a border. That means there's no TrueCrypt, and no TrueCrypt volume on my laptop at all. Why should there be? We have the Internet.
frank_boyd 13y ago
> In the 2011 DHS document, the CBP says it can conduct a "brief physical inspection," such as switching a device on, to demonstrate that it is not a container for illegal substances, but it has the right to "search [...] the device's contents." A device can also be detained, which can result in a copy of the data contained on the device being stored for latest forensic searches. And a copy of the data can be used for "evidence of continued or future admissibility." Device detentions can are often returned within seven days, but can be extended up to 14 days, the document says. This means: If you don't want to give random people your data, you can simply not travel with any devices such as a phone, laptop, tablet, USB stick, SD card. I'm speechless.
- D9u 13y ago
  <sarcasm> Velcome to ze new millenia, ve are ze government, ve are here to help, trust us! </sarcasm>
powertower 13y ago
I'm being detained because - A) I'm not the right skin color. B) DHS and U.S. Customs and Border Protection are evil. -or- C) I work for a group that has been classified as an eco-terrorist organization. And due to past terrorist events my org was involved in, they want to find out what I'm doing here. Doesn't C) explain this so much better than A) and B)? But then there wouldn't be a story here to report on.
- kintamanimatt 13y ago
  That's a false dichotomy. Why can't all three be factors?
  - smalltalk 13y ago
    It may be all three factors, but given (C), (C) alone is reasonable justification for his situation, rendering (A) and (B) irrelevant.
- nraynaud 13y ago
  C) after having been actively attacked by some State special forces http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior edit: I keep thinking about that, and I don't know how you don't become crazy when you discover that the four or fifth biggest economy (at the time) actively attacked you. A "sane" level of paranoia doesn't exists anymore, you are actually framed by the secret services, you are in the novel, in the movie. They have allies all over the world, the rest is USSR friends you don't trust either or non-aligned third world countries.
  - jordanthoms 13y ago
    Exactly - I don't generally support Greenpeace, but there is no doubt they were a victim of state-sponsored terrorism - the state being France. Actually, it's the only terrorist attack we've ever had in New Zealand, and it resulted in a civilian's death. France threatened to embargo NZ goods within the EU unless we handed back their terrorists. At which point they were released and promoted.
D9u 13y ago
All that's missing from US borders now are the pneumatic flechette firing motion detectors... Think nail guns with motion detectors... Your travel papers please, Komrade!
D9u 13y ago
I fail to see how everyone is now considered to be a potential terrorist simply because some (mostly) Saudi nationals hijacked a few planes 11 years ago. It is an affront to our dignity, especially in light of the fact that "General Aviation" (Private jets) terminals are not held to the same level of scrutiny. http://www.tsa.gov/stakeholders/security-directives http://www.tsa.gov/stakeholders/security-directives http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-issues/1205769-bypassing-tsa-way-general-aviation.html http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-issue...
- camino020 13y ago
  Remember George Carlin's words: "It's a big club, and you ain't in it" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0
- betterunix 13y ago
  I had the privilege of flying on a private plane this summer. "Not held to the same level of scrutiny" is a major understatement. There were no checks whatsoever, only a gate with a keypad standing between us and the airplane. We could travel with whatever we wanted on the plane. Yes, we had as many duffle bags as there were people, and no, nobody was even around to ask what was inside those bags. It is a clear illustration of the utter pointlessness of the TSA checkpoints. The kind of terrorists who attacked us in 2001 could have used a private plane packed with C4 just as easily as a commercial jet.
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    Just how easy do you think it is to acquire enough C4 to get the same effect as a fully fueled jetliner without drawing unwanted attention?
    - gtirloni 13y ago
      I would try to google this but I'm afraid this will get logged by NSA-like agencies and I might be subject to harrassement next time I vist the US. The terrorists surely achieved their end goal.
pinaceae 13y ago
article starts with a general overview, then explains the numbers (a really small sub section of travellers get into trouble at the border, most for very good reasons like warrants). and then the article takes a u-turn and focuses on a special case. someone associated to an eco terrorist association. what the fuck. ever seen what happens in frankfurt if one of the border agents suspects you of smuggling? off you go. they trawl the airport, pick you out of the crowd. they even show this in some reality tv shows, hope you like being on camera. how about you travel a bit more? any major country has border control, they all are very, very similar. and what the hell are the mini james bonds in here doing that needs them to truecrypt their shit and wipe their phones? you have HN, github, whatever accounts, you code in public but you need to hide your files? the fuck are you storing on your hds that is not public knowledge? travelling with your porn collection?
- betterunix 13y ago
  "the fuck are you storing on your hds that is not public knowledge?" Personal emails to my fiance? Personal photographs that I am not posting all over the Internet? Business secrets, maybe things that I had to sign an NDA for? How about this: if you have nothing to hide on your hard drive, send me a disk dump and let me look through. If you do not want me looking through it, why should I feel OK with the CBP looking through mine? "travelling with your porn collection?" Suppose someone only has one laptop (shocking!). Would it be that crazy to think that they might be traveling with their porn collection?
  - pinaceae 13y ago
    i went through 2 passports in the last 6 years, ran out of space. travelling with company laptops and now additional iPads. never, ever, did anyone want to search my HD. and this is Russia, China, Japan, SKorea, US, Brazil, Argentinia, plus 80% of Europe. none, ever. and even if. good luck with some powerpoints, pdfs, word docs. emails are in gmail, work is JIRA/confluence/google docs, etc. NDAs talk about preventing willful sharing with competitors, etc. Reasonable prevention measures, like locking your computer. Border Patrol requesting access? go ahead. unless you're a nuclear physicist working on the next gen thing, what the hell is so important to hide from a border agent that right now wants to search YOU, not your precious employer. and porn - the internet is for porn.
cmod 13y ago
Has anyone created a simple, anonymous app (webapp?) to rate your experience going through customs / tsa security? It would: geolocate, allow you to choose airport, entry or exit, and then rate a few parameters of the experience with optional comment. Would love to see data like this in aggregate.
josefit 13y ago
Why worry about borders when even ex-STASI members have declared they would have loved to had (at their times) the suirvellance tools USA has right now. Are you serious about your privacy? Never use social networks, crypt everything and never fly to or through USA. Oh, and by the way now I can welcome myself in the one percenters. :)
enscr 13y ago
That's a massive number of travelers crossing the border and a small percentage of those have a bad intent. We often jump at the first opportunity to criticize about our "first world" rights but do we have a better solution to keep the country safe? I bet many of you don't like the cops ticketing you for over-speeding either. But it keeps the roads safe... for the remaining & from the remaining 98%.
- grey-area 13y ago
  Does this harassment keep the country safe?
  - enscr 13y ago
    You tell me. How many terrorist attacks have you heard after 9/11 in USA. You can count them on your fingers. Is that good or bad? How many gun related violence have you heard. Don't even start to count. What does that say? 'harassment' isn't the aim, it is an unintended by-product. I believe, a careful screening makes incredible difference. People living in first world countries often take law & order for granted. When you visit a third world country, you are issued so many safety advisories because you aren't used to weird stuff happen day in & day out.
    - lotsofcows 13y ago
      "How many terrorist attacks have you heard after 9/11 in USA." Hundreds. Every idiot child who talks about taking a gun to school is labelled a terrorist. Conversely, how many terrorist attacks have you heard before 9/11 in USA? I can't think of any. Wikipedia shows some - total deaths for decade or so I flicked back through: about 5.
      - enscr 13y ago
        When we are discussing about screening at international US border, we can discount the cases that you are talking about even though you may call them terror attacks. The point here is : - Does screening at border reduces terror attacks : Yes - Why? : Count the incidents - Is it the best solution : No
smalltalk 13y ago
What people seem regularly to forget is that if you are not a US citizen, you have absolutely no right or privilege to enter the US. While the US may decide to extend you the courtesy of allowing you to enter the US, it does so in its sole and absolute discretion, and accordingly it may deny you entry for any or no reason at all. Acting like you have the right or privilege to enter the US as a non-citizen is silly and stupid.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

186 points by Libertatea 13y ago

"It is an international legal phenomenon that is left much to the discretion of host countries." Yes it is. Every country has this power, and every country uses this power as it wishes. There are plenty of countries that I have no hope whatever of visiting.

_ak 13y ago

Well, that's US-American imperialism for you: declare de-facto jurisdiction over everything, afford rights to nobody. Be that at the US border or at US-run detention facilities outside the US like Guantanamo.

blackcat 13y ago
We are about to launch another war from our military bases in Germany. The fatherland's moral outrage is laughable.
- quantumpotato_ 13y ago
  Explain?
  - frank_boyd 13y ago
    The US justifying a war with "moral values".
  - blackcat 13y ago
    Germany is enabling the US to continue with these ridiculous escapades by not closing US bases for some minuscule economic gain. If you believe these wars, Iraq, Afghanistan and soon Syria are terrible but want to keep the bases you are a hypocrite and either way as culpable for civilian deaths as any American. Many in Germany are upset about these wars, virtually none want to close the bases. Serious willful disconnect there.
    - D9u 13y ago
      I don't see too many Americans chomping at the bit in favor of US intervention in yet another nation which poses absolutely zero viable threat to the the USA. We're sick and tired of interventionist policy, since Korea, Viet Nam, etc, etc, etc. To hold American citizens culpable for the actions of the government which lies to us and spies upon us while claiming "Moral High Ground" is to ignore the fact that we are no longer informed, so the "consent of the governed" is no longer present.
      - pyre 13y ago
        > I don't see too many Americans chomping You must not get out much. There are a lot of Americans chomping at the bit to "stick it to those ragheads." It doesn't matter which Middle Eastern country, as long as we go over there and "kick some ass" against people that are different than us, they are 100% on-board.
    - primitur 13y ago
      The only way for Germany to close the US bases is for Germany to declare war on the US. Seriously! US bases in Germany are US territory ..
      - nraynaud 13y ago
        I think they are US jurisdiction, not territory, it's like an embassy. There are ways to remove them. There might also be a reason to remove them, in light of the spying involved, if Germany discovers for example that SAP is more negatively impacted by the US spying than positively by the commerce with the US. Same with planes (that's where the suspicions are the highest) car makers and tool machine makers.
        gtirloni 13y ago
        I think your example of SAP is spot on. People see all these news about war, US vs. the world, etc and they take sides, become angry, etc while not questioning the obvious: who is going to have a material gain from this all? I've become quite a cinic about these things and I think economic power / money will usually be behind most of it. Unfortunately I don't believe in countries helping poor people in remote lands, government worried about killings, pride in being the beacon of democracy, etc. It's all about power and money.
eshvk 13y ago
I fail to see how "imperialism" applies to U.S. border restrictions. I have found those annoying too (brown + permanent resident) but the word imperialism is incorrectly being applied here, I think.

mixmax 13y ago

If it doesn't already exist someone should make an Iphone and/or android app that will let you lock your phone before you go through customs, and only allow you to unlock it at a specified time and/or place. For instance 5 hours after landing at the location of your booked hotel. That way you won't be able to divulge information held on your phone, even if you wanted to.

Spearchucker 13y ago
Overkill. Cross borders clean. I reset my phone every time I cross any border. And then resync everything I need on the other side. I have a TrueCrypt volume I download to my travel laptop. It's small but contains what I need when abroad.
- josefit 13y ago
  Unfortunately they still might ask you to fire up your laptop, give the password, find the truecrypt volume and then ask you the password for that.
  - e_proxus 13y ago
    You can use a TrueCrypt hidden volume for that. Fill up a normal volume with some plausible data and use the hidden volume for your actual files. http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/hidden-volume http://www.truecrypt.org/docs/hidden-volume
    - pearjuice 13y ago
      If they were actually on you, they would find the hidden volume too.
  - Spearchucker 13y ago
    Sorry, my post was a bit sparse on detail. I keep a TC volume (file) on three separate public file shares. My laptop is clean. I download and install TruCrypt, and download the TC volume once I'm through customs. When I say clean, I mean that there's no trace of anything on any of my devices while I cross a border. That means there's no TrueCrypt, and no TrueCrypt volume on my laptop at all. Why should there be? We have the Internet.

frank_boyd 13y ago

> In the 2011 DHS document, the CBP says it can conduct a "brief physical inspection," such as switching a device on, to demonstrate that it is not a container for illegal substances, but it has the right to "search [...] the device's contents." A device can also be detained, which can result in a copy of the data contained on the device being stored for latest forensic searches. And a copy of the data can be used for "evidence of continued or future admissibility." Device detentions can are often returned within seven days, but can be extended up to 14 days, the document says. This means: If you don't want to give random people your data, you can simply not travel with any devices such as a phone, laptop, tablet, USB stick, SD card. I'm speechless.

D9u 13y ago
<sarcasm> Velcome to ze new millenia, ve are ze government, ve are here to help, trust us! </sarcasm>

powertower 13y ago

I'm being detained because - A) I'm not the right skin color. B) DHS and U.S. Customs and Border Protection are evil. -or- C) I work for a group that has been classified as an eco-terrorist organization. And due to past terrorist events my org was involved in, they want to find out what I'm doing here. Doesn't C) explain this so much better than A) and B)? But then there wouldn't be a story here to report on.

kintamanimatt 13y ago
That's a false dichotomy. Why can't all three be factors?
- smalltalk 13y ago
  It may be all three factors, but given (C), (C) alone is reasonable justification for his situation, rendering (A) and (B) irrelevant.
nraynaud 13y ago
C) after having been actively attacked by some State special forces http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior edit: I keep thinking about that, and I don't know how you don't become crazy when you discover that the four or fifth biggest economy (at the time) actively attacked you. A "sane" level of paranoia doesn't exists anymore, you are actually framed by the secret services, you are in the novel, in the movie. They have allies all over the world, the rest is USSR friends you don't trust either or non-aligned third world countries.
- jordanthoms 13y ago
  Exactly - I don't generally support Greenpeace, but there is no doubt they were a victim of state-sponsored terrorism - the state being France. Actually, it's the only terrorist attack we've ever had in New Zealand, and it resulted in a civilian's death. France threatened to embargo NZ goods within the EU unless we handed back their terrorists. At which point they were released and promoted.

D9u 13y ago

All that's missing from US borders now are the pneumatic flechette firing motion detectors... Think nail guns with motion detectors... Your travel papers please, Komrade!

D9u 13y ago

I fail to see how everyone is now considered to be a potential terrorist simply because some (mostly) Saudi nationals hijacked a few planes 11 years ago. It is an affront to our dignity, especially in light of the fact that "General Aviation" (Private jets) terminals are not held to the same level of scrutiny. http://www.tsa.gov/stakeholders/security-directives http://www.tsa.gov/stakeholders/security-directives http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-issues/1205769-bypassing-tsa-way-general-aviation.html http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/practical-travel-safety-issue...

camino020 13y ago
Remember George Carlin's words: "It's a big club, and you ain't in it" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0
betterunix 13y ago
I had the privilege of flying on a private plane this summer. "Not held to the same level of scrutiny" is a major understatement. There were no checks whatsoever, only a gate with a keypad standing between us and the airplane. We could travel with whatever we wanted on the plane. Yes, we had as many duffle bags as there were people, and no, nobody was even around to ask what was inside those bags. It is a clear illustration of the utter pointlessness of the TSA checkpoints. The kind of terrorists who attacked us in 2001 could have used a private plane packed with C4 just as easily as a commercial jet.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  Just how easy do you think it is to acquire enough C4 to get the same effect as a fully fueled jetliner without drawing unwanted attention?
  - gtirloni 13y ago
    I would try to google this but I'm afraid this will get logged by NSA-like agencies and I might be subject to harrassement next time I vist the US. The terrorists surely achieved their end goal.

pinaceae 13y ago

article starts with a general overview, then explains the numbers (a really small sub section of travellers get into trouble at the border, most for very good reasons like warrants). and then the article takes a u-turn and focuses on a special case. someone associated to an eco terrorist association. what the fuck. ever seen what happens in frankfurt if one of the border agents suspects you of smuggling? off you go. they trawl the airport, pick you out of the crowd. they even show this in some reality tv shows, hope you like being on camera. how about you travel a bit more? any major country has border control, they all are very, very similar. and what the hell are the mini james bonds in here doing that needs them to truecrypt their shit and wipe their phones? you have HN, github, whatever accounts, you code in public but you need to hide your files? the fuck are you storing on your hds that is not public knowledge? travelling with your porn collection?

betterunix 13y ago
"the fuck are you storing on your hds that is not public knowledge?" Personal emails to my fiance? Personal photographs that I am not posting all over the Internet? Business secrets, maybe things that I had to sign an NDA for? How about this: if you have nothing to hide on your hard drive, send me a disk dump and let me look through. If you do not want me looking through it, why should I feel OK with the CBP looking through mine? "travelling with your porn collection?" Suppose someone only has one laptop (shocking!). Would it be that crazy to think that they might be traveling with their porn collection?
- pinaceae 13y ago
  i went through 2 passports in the last 6 years, ran out of space. travelling with company laptops and now additional iPads. never, ever, did anyone want to search my HD. and this is Russia, China, Japan, SKorea, US, Brazil, Argentinia, plus 80% of Europe. none, ever. and even if. good luck with some powerpoints, pdfs, word docs. emails are in gmail, work is JIRA/confluence/google docs, etc. NDAs talk about preventing willful sharing with competitors, etc. Reasonable prevention measures, like locking your computer. Border Patrol requesting access? go ahead. unless you're a nuclear physicist working on the next gen thing, what the hell is so important to hide from a border agent that right now wants to search YOU, not your precious employer. and porn - the internet is for porn.

cmod 13y ago

Has anyone created a simple, anonymous app (webapp?) to rate your experience going through customs / tsa security? It would: geolocate, allow you to choose airport, entry or exit, and then rate a few parameters of the experience with optional comment. Would love to see data like this in aggregate.

josefit 13y ago

Why worry about borders when even ex-STASI members have declared they would have loved to had (at their times) the suirvellance tools USA has right now. Are you serious about your privacy? Never use social networks, crypt everything and never fly to or through USA. Oh, and by the way now I can welcome myself in the one percenters. :)

enscr 13y ago

That's a massive number of travelers crossing the border and a small percentage of those have a bad intent. We often jump at the first opportunity to criticize about our "first world" rights but do we have a better solution to keep the country safe? I bet many of you don't like the cops ticketing you for over-speeding either. But it keeps the roads safe... for the remaining & from the remaining 98%.

grey-area 13y ago
Does this harassment keep the country safe?
- enscr 13y ago
  You tell me. How many terrorist attacks have you heard after 9/11 in USA. You can count them on your fingers. Is that good or bad? How many gun related violence have you heard. Don't even start to count. What does that say? 'harassment' isn't the aim, it is an unintended by-product. I believe, a careful screening makes incredible difference. People living in first world countries often take law & order for granted. When you visit a third world country, you are issued so many safety advisories because you aren't used to weird stuff happen day in & day out.
  - lotsofcows 13y ago
    "How many terrorist attacks have you heard after 9/11 in USA." Hundreds. Every idiot child who talks about taking a gun to school is labelled a terrorist. Conversely, how many terrorist attacks have you heard before 9/11 in USA? I can't think of any. Wikipedia shows some - total deaths for decade or so I flicked back through: about 5.
    - enscr 13y ago
      When we are discussing about screening at international US border, we can discount the cases that you are talking about even though you may call them terror attacks. The point here is : - Does screening at border reduces terror attacks : Yes - Why? : Count the incidents - Is it the best solution : No

smalltalk 13y ago

What people seem regularly to forget is that if you are not a US citizen, you have absolutely no right or privilege to enter the US. While the US may decide to extend you the courtesy of allowing you to enter the US, it does so in its sole and absolute discretion, and accordingly it may deny you entry for any or no reason at all. Acting like you have the right or privilege to enter the US as a non-citizen is silly and stupid.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]