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I think there is something much larger at stake though. The question as you put it, I think, is whether culture should be allowed to arise from the grass roots

I think there is something much larger at stake though. The question as you put it, I think, is whether culture should be allowed to arise from the grass roots or whether it should be formed by the state in public schools. You put it in one way but what about when it comes down to cultural values? We have extended the definition of bullying so far as to cover stated ideological opinions in the US, and therefore we use public school (as I think you are advocating btw) to destroy the diversity and pluralism that has traditionally underscored our society. But what if Indian immigrants want to teach that there is value in the caste system? Must the state use public schools to try to stamp out such a view? I am btw a large proponent of homeschooling because I think it represents a way for parents to take control of passing culture on to the next generation and that this helps encourage a tolerant and pluralistic society. If Indians want to teach that the caste system is a noble part of India's heritage, bully for them. If Catholics want to teach that radical individualism is harmful, and that marriage is extremely important because it supports the key relationships that hold society together, particularly between parents, grandparents, and children, bully for them. Accepting and encouraging such diversity is important for our nation. Encouraging culture at the grass roots, I think, is universally important, and it is worth noting that public schools have been, since the time of Lycurgus, an institution intended to destroy that role, and foster the primary loyalty not to one's parents or family but to the state. While this may have worked in ancient Sparta on that scale without destroying the local nature of culture, it cannot scale to the level of a modern country. I can't help but think about this in relation to the responses I get every time I suggest that the US should try to implement a Canada-style state-by-state single payer system for health care. A few on the right get upset at any notion of single payer, apparently believing that "private sector" is a magical incantation of great power, but the big objections I get are from the left. "But we can't let Alabama run their own health care system! That would be a disaster!" is one typical response. It is as if the role of the government in a democratic country is there to save people from democracy and that, paraphrasing Orwell (in "Animal Farm"), that people are free to make decisions as long as it is decisions that those in power like. But what if families should take responsibility for raising children? What if the general problems of state government belong properly to the residents of that state (aside from things which clearly violate the Constitution, including the Equal Protection Clause, of course)? I don't understand this hostility towards localism.

rdtsc 13y ago
Thank you for a good reply, it was a well thought out post. > I don't understand this hostility towards localism. I wonder if tolerance for diversity should also include tolerating other countries making their own laws, in this case Germany. It is a democratic country, apparently the majority don't mind this ban on homeschooling. Now yes, I am speaking from a far away perception. Anyone from Germany please help us out here. Is this this seen as such an egregious abuse of power people's power is just not enough to overturn it or is this what most would agree with? > The question as you put it, I think, is whether culture should be allowed to arise from the grass roots or whether it should be formed by the state in public schools. I think you might have slightly misread my comment though. It wasn't my intention to say that this law (making homeschooling illegal) should be enacted here in US. I recognize that it probably wouldn't pass and it might not be right. According to stats I found on some .gov site (after 3 seconds of searching) is that about 3% of students in 2007 were home-schooled in US. The number was rising. So it might be higher now. Some states only let parent who have a masters degree or higher to home school their children, that is an interesting approach. My original point was more about saying how some countries might choose to make it illegal and I agree with that. Given public schools are safe and decent and provide a good baseline of education. Lack of emphasis on individualism and cultural expression is just well not part of their culture. Now going back to US or I guess discussing home schooling in general. It seems some things are complimentary -- say one can teach their child to do math in a better way, more efficient, and more intuitive. In general (with exception, I agree) that is complimentary with what they maybe learning in school. Others are not, like maybe the example with creationism, or how we teach history -- "telling them American Indians were exterminated using bio terrorism by the US government" vs implying that the settlers came to this lush, empty continent, like a God's promised land, with a few native inhabitants who strangely chose to live in mosquito infested swaps or the most absolute dry and inhospitable canyons. There is a propaganda and mentality shaping going on. But it is both ways. Because teaching kids about how great the caste system is or about how the earth is 5000 years old is also borderline on child abuse in my book. I don't usually subscribe to all cultures are just as good. There are fucked up beliefs and fucked up societal conventions. So I imagine that would be the argument against it ( I am not really sharply for one or the other in US, I haven't made my mind yet). > But what if families should take responsibility for raising children? But what if they are crippling them should they be allowed? Putting them in a compound and telling them about trumpets on the hill or how there are lizard aliens living among us, instead of learning about integrals and derivatives. Can't you see how perhaps other countries' citizens might agree with having the government step in. > It is as if the role of the government in a democratic country is there to save people from democracy I guess it is inevitable that we'd end up discussing generalized political stuff. But alright, we are already in it. The role of the government in the democratic society, ideally, the way I see is to work for the people. People want protection from foreign invaders, they make their taxes into tanks, they want to drive everywhere, they make taxes into roads, they want healthcare, they turn taxes into subsidized pills and doctors' visits. I also don't understand the big obsession in this country with "let the states do it" vs "let the federal government do it". Does it really matter that much. If Alabama can do it, let it do it, if it is easier on the federal level, let's do it there. The reality is -- it hasn't happened. We are stuck with a broken piece of shit health care system.

rdtsc 13y ago

Thank you for a good reply, it was a well thought out post. > I don't understand this hostility towards localism. I wonder if tolerance for diversity should also include tolerating other countries making their own laws, in this case Germany. It is a democratic country, apparently the majority don't mind this ban on homeschooling. Now yes, I am speaking from a far away perception. Anyone from Germany please help us out here. Is this this seen as such an egregious abuse of power people's power is just not enough to overturn it or is this what most would agree with? > The question as you put it, I think, is whether culture should be allowed to arise from the grass roots or whether it should be formed by the state in public schools. I think you might have slightly misread my comment though. It wasn't my intention to say that this law (making homeschooling illegal) should be enacted here in US. I recognize that it probably wouldn't pass and it might not be right. According to stats I found on some .gov site (after 3 seconds of searching) is that about 3% of students in 2007 were home-schooled in US. The number was rising. So it might be higher now. Some states only let parent who have a masters degree or higher to home school their children, that is an interesting approach. My original point was more about saying how some countries might choose to make it illegal and I agree with that. Given public schools are safe and decent and provide a good baseline of education. Lack of emphasis on individualism and cultural expression is just well not part of their culture. Now going back to US or I guess discussing home schooling in general. It seems some things are complimentary -- say one can teach their child to do math in a better way, more efficient, and more intuitive. In general (with exception, I agree) that is complimentary with what they maybe learning in school. Others are not, like maybe the example with creationism, or how we teach history -- "telling them American Indians were exterminated using bio terrorism by the US government" vs implying that the settlers came to this lush, empty continent, like a God's promised land, with a few native inhabitants who strangely chose to live in mosquito infested swaps or the most absolute dry and inhospitable canyons. There is a propaganda and mentality shaping going on. But it is both ways. Because teaching kids about how great the caste system is or about how the earth is 5000 years old is also borderline on child abuse in my book. I don't usually subscribe to all cultures are just as good. There are fucked up beliefs and fucked up societal conventions. So I imagine that would be the argument against it ( I am not really sharply for one or the other in US, I haven't made my mind yet). > But what if families should take responsibility for raising children? But what if they are crippling them should they be allowed? Putting them in a compound and telling them about trumpets on the hill or how there are lizard aliens living among us, instead of learning about integrals and derivatives. Can't you see how perhaps other countries' citizens might agree with having the government step in. > It is as if the role of the government in a democratic country is there to save people from democracy I guess it is inevitable that we'd end up discussing generalized political stuff. But alright, we are already in it. The role of the government in the democratic society, ideally, the way I see is to work for the people. People want protection from foreign invaders, they make their taxes into tanks, they want to drive everywhere, they make taxes into roads, they want healthcare, they turn taxes into subsidized pills and doctors' visits. I also don't understand the big obsession in this country with "let the states do it" vs "let the federal government do it". Does it really matter that much. If Alabama can do it, let it do it, if it is easier on the federal level, let's do it there. The reality is -- it hasn't happened. We are stuck with a broken piece of shit health care system.